White House To Declassify “Holy Grail” Torture Report That Could Undercut Cheney
There’s a big piece of news about Dick Cheney and torture buried toward the end of this big Washington Post piece about the torture wars.
Specifically: The White House has decided to declassify and release a classified 2004 CIA report about the torture program that is reported to have found no proof that torture foiled any terror plots on American soil — directly contradicting Cheney’s claims. The paper cites “allies” of the White House as a source.
Dem Congressional staffers tell me this report is the “holy grail,” because it is expected to detail torture in unprecedented detail and to cast doubt on the claim that torture works — and its release will almost certainly trigger howls of protest from conservatives. Tellingly, neither the CIA nor the White House knocked down the story in response to my questions, with spokespeople for both declining comment. Here’s the key nugget from the Post piece:
Government officials familiar with the CIA’s early interrogations say the most powerful evidence of apparent excesses is contained in the “top secret” May 7, 2004, inspector general report, based on more than 100 interviews, a review of the videotapes and 38,000 pages of documents. The full report remains closely held, although White House officials have told political allies that they intend to declassify it for public release when the debate quiets over last month’s release of the Justice Department’s interrogation memos…
Although some useful information was produced, the report concluded that “it is difficult to determine conclusively whether interrogations have provided information critical to interdicting specific imminent attacks,” according to the Justice Department’s declassified summary of it.
This news is particularly timely in light of Cheney’s continuing high-profile claims that torture may have saved “hundreds of thousands of lives.” The report is the one I wrote about recently that the ACLU obtained through litigation in highly redacted form. It has an entire redacted section that discusses the “effectiveness” of torture — or lack thereof.
The release of this thing is going to be a big deal. You heard it here first.
The homepage of this blog is here. RSS feed here. Twitter feed here. Email me here.
I can’t wait for that IG Report to come out. What I hope the White House does is allow Dick Cheney to come out with his orchestrated report and give him a few days to make a bogus case for torture then release the IG report and allow people to start calling for prosecutions.
.
On another note isn’t it amazing that the conservatives and their media enablers are now equating Democrats KNOWING about torture to the Bush administration ORDERING torture. The wingnuts keep saying “Nancy Pelosi should be prosecuted too then”. What would the charge be? Illegal listening?
Great work, Greg.
This is great news. Then maybe they will lock up Cheney and he will go away, and the Joke of the Morning will shut his mouth. He has been crowing this morning about how right and how Cheney has every right to be out talking.
He even said this morning that Cheney was right and we are not as safe now as we were 6 months ago because of what Pres. Obama had done.
This has to stop. This fear mongering by the right is just over the top. We rejected it I thought in the election, but it just continues.
“What would the charge be? Illegal listening?”
No, if we were really serious about prosecuting people for this, Pelosi would have to explain herself. Since we aren’t in the middle of a truth commission or anything else, then this doesn’t matter. But honestly, there’s no way she could just claim there was nothing she could do if they were taking testimony. If this was a real prosecution, and it was shown she knew everything and said and did nothing, then yeah, Pelosi would have problems. You can’t just sit on knowledge of something illegal and have impunity for knowing and not saying.
It’s just that no crimes have been charged, so her knowing means nothing at this point.
In other words = the Republicans can’t simultaneously claim: 1. no crimes were committed, but 2. Nancy Pelosi is somehow guilty.
Tena
.
What could Nancy Pelosi had done even if she knew every detail?
sg – she could have gone public. That’s about it, because all the back channels were covered. But anything she did would have violated state secrets laws.
wvng
.
That last line is my point. She would have been locked the eff up if she ever spoke out. Thats if they even allowed her to speak out at all. Thats why our sytem is flawed right now because it handcuffs the people who are supposed to have oversight.
“What would the charge be? Illegal listening?”
I asked that same question yesterday – I have no answer for it. All I know is that if someone was charged with a crime here, Pelosi would have to explain why she wasn’t a co-conspirator by virtue of knowing and not saying anything.
o don’t start with the “you’re posing too fast” bullshit -
What she could have done wouldn’t matter – I hate to bring this up but it’s the only analogy I have – look at what we did to Albert Speer. He claimed til he died that he didn’t know what Hitler was really doing (that was a crock, but that’s what he claimed.) He went to prison anyway because everyone who knew and did nothing were equally guilty.
The laws on conspiracy and on obstruction of justice would demand to know who knew what when and what they did with the knowledge.
But only if we have criminal prosecutions – and that’s not going to happen, anyway.
To all those Peolosi/dems haters, How does it matter if Pelosi knew this or not.? Dems are not some sort of god that decide which laws can be broken by Conservatives. If a law is broken, you have to prosecute these hoodlums regarless of the role played by anyone else.
The interview between George Bush and Al Arabiya is priceless, it puts all this into context, is a must see and is on Library Grape website. Don’t miss!
Tena
.
Thats a different situation. Our secrecy laws precluded Nancy Pelosi or anyone else in the Gang of 8 or Gang of 4 from doing anything. You can’t be d@mned if you do AND d@mned if you don’t. In that situation she would have been choosing between going to jail for breaking the law or keeping silent and going to jail for breaking the law.
”
That last line is my point. She would have been locked the eff up if she ever spoke out. ”
What that is is a mitigating factor that would figure in to the question of someone’s guilt here. But like I keep saying – this only comes up at all if someone is charged with an actual crime.
Otherwise it’s all a matter of just knowing who knew what when and what they did and it’s going to be a PR thing as much as anything under the current circumstances where we’re just talking about all this – no charges have been filed, nothing at all has happened to put Pelosi or anyone else in that position.
As a young man, Cheney refused to serve his country (taking 5 deferments), and now as an old man he wants to torture in the name of America. This man is no friend of our United States! -Kevo
Does anyone besides me think it’s a little odd that the one person we have not heard one word from about all this is George W. Bush?
Sorry, I am a bit unclear. Is it the HEAVILY REDACTED report that is going to be released, or an unredacted version? I just downloaded the one titled 052708_Special_Review.pdf and it is huge blocks of redacted text, with the ToC “Denied in Full.” Isn’t that pretty useless, or am I just terminally confused?
“You can’t be d@mned if you do AND d@mned if you don’t. In that situation she would have been choosing between going to jail for breaking the law or keeping silent and going to jail for breaking the law.”
Well, you can, actually. But only as I said where someone is charged with a crime. None of this matters otherwise and just because it would matter than doesn’t mean she would be guilty of anything, only that more than likely everyone involved would have to reveal what they knew when and why they did or didn’t do anything about it.
The law that made it impossible for her to tell anyone without breaching security would be her main defense – if people were charged with this series of war crimes but they aren’t. It’s a defense but not a bar to prosecution or to charging someone with a war crime.
Tena, I think GWB is keeping his “vow of silence” and just letting Cheney do his talking.
I think we should have a special prosecutor investigate, and if some Dems are deemed complicit, they should be charged right along with the rest of the administration that authorized this torture.
I have never served in the military (I don’t think women did, way back then) so I’m not speaking from first hand experience, but I am in favor of punishing everyone involved in torturing, including those who followed orders. Sorry, but they could have refused. JMHO.
It isn’t clear what the Gang of 4 and/or 8 was told, and it isn’t clear that the Dems were told the same things as the Repubs. As I understand it, Pelosi was told that what they were doing was legal. That they had gotten legal opinions on the program, which they did do, of course. As I understand it, she and the Dems were not briefed in excruciating detail about what these criminals were engaged in. So if she was told that the programs was evaluated to be legal, why would she violate state secrets like that, in that political atmosphere?
.
This is nothing but a diversion to the actual criminals’ benefit. Why do the liberals always fall for this nonsense? Keep the focus on what Cheney and Bush did.
The “Nuremberg Defense”…
“The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him.”
Tena: GWB is a pretty shrewd customer. He does not talk, he gets a pass. Cheney seems quite happy to take his lumps. I am sure Republicans ( other than Morning Joke) must cringe at the thought of a man who spent most of his 8 years in an undisclosed location now standing on the rooftop yelling: “We are not safe”.
On the CIA briefings: I get the impression the they are meant to “compromise” those who are briefed and encourage them to become party of the insiders. What is the point of “oversight” if everything you are TOLD cannot be repeated under penalty of legal jeopardy.
It is time Pelosi stepped up and gave her side: not with her disastrous style of hesitating and fumbling, but with a clear statement and a agressive stance.
The Pelosi gambit is just the latest attention diverter. Even if she was fully informed and the evidence on that is mixed what does it signify. She was informed, not consulted, not asked for her opinion, she was informed. And once she was informed she couldn’t speak publicly about it because the info was classified. And those same Republicans holding her in some way responsible would have been screaming about her revealing classified intelligence. These people are so transparent it’s laughable.
” 20.
The “Nuremberg Defense”…
“The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him.”
Leave a Reply
Name (required)
Mail (will not be published) (required)
Website
Please email us at profiles@whorunsgov.com to bring to our attention any content or conduct that you believe violates our Discussion and Submission Policy.
”
That’s just why I brought up Albert Speer, even though I hated to do that because I’m not making an analogy to Nazis here – I don’t think even Cheney was close to Hitler or even Pinochet, though I think without a constitution he would have been closer.
But the law on these things is pretty damn tough – and Pelosi would have a major problem if we decided to go there with war crimes trials.
GWB was smiling so much when he departed D.C. because he knew he has it made, is untouchable, and Obama’s hair is going to quickly turn white with all the **** he’ll be dealing with. Pursuing Cheney is something Obama and his crew will do ONLY if they need a media side show to deflect from something significantly negative/damaging about this administration. Otherwise it will just be a distraction that will NOT advance their goals. Cheney haters should try to look for positive things to focus on to avoid being overcome by the “dark side”. But for some, I suppose its too late, like Cheney you have become Sith.
The trio of Jello Jay, “Whose listening in to my conversations” Harman and Fumble and Mumble Pelosi do not inspire confidence. These three should get together, come up with a clear statement of when and what they were briefed and appear on tv together. They will make news and will force the WH to de-classify this material asap.
George Waterboard Bush has secured his legacy, and now we know what the W stands for.
Tena
.
The Nuremberg defense refers to people who acted due to orders from a superior. It has absolutely nothing to do with people who were told what was happening but didn’t speak out. And when you add in not being able to speak because of secrecy law like I said before there is no way to prosecute any of the Gang of 4 or Gang of 8 and that includes the Republicans in those briefings because they had no actual input and they didn’t carry out any orders. States secrets laws in this country supersede just about all other laws.
tsk, don’t tell me that Pelosi is such a victim that she can’t get word leaked when she wants.
the woman has resources, & she uses them when she wants to.
So Obama is feeling the need to double down because he knows how explosive those memos Cheney has requested will be when released.
Punk Move. Note to Obama. Check your focus groups. Anything you release is going to backfire bigtime, because it is quite obvious that the CIA had BIPARTISAN support for everything they were doing.
Note to Repubs. Pop the Popcorn and let the games begin! When the enemy begins destroying himself, just sit back and watch.
I mentioned this on the weekend thread, but will say it again. When considering Pelosi in all this, don’t forget what her position actually was in September of 2002. She was the ranking member (so in the minority) of the House Intelligence Committee, and she’d only become minority whip earlier that year. When considering what she knew and when she knew it, and what she could or couldn’t have done about it, we need to remember we’re not talking about someone who had the Speaker’s power. Her ability to be effective then was much more limited. And I’ll repeat this too–it’s pretty much what SG said on this thread–we can’t let talkers and pundits get away with saying that knowing something = doing everything. There may be culpability in both, but it’s of a very different order of magnitude.
Just keep paying out rope to cheney…. it’s backfiring! Give him even MORE media exposure… so more is declassified in response.
I am sick of this *******. Maybe it can be arranged, so that when Rush Limbaugh’s kidneys fail, Cheney’s heart stops. Or whatever that organ is, where his heart is suppose to be!
Everytime Cheney decides to way in on these matters make it a little easier for the current administration to ask for the release of what it determines as information regarding our EIT (torture). I can not believe that Cheney actually confirmed that the President was and had to made aware to sign off on all of these issues. In a futuristic fantasy I can see GWB on the stand saying something completely to the detriment of Cheney and completely backing up many of GWB critics claims that Cheney while VP was running a indepenent branch of the executive with little oversight. Bush claims “I learned it from watching you Dick! Dick you told me to do it! You claimed I only had 24-hours to sign! Your the reason I had to take so much vacation while POTUS and I am going to sue you personally for turning my hair grey!”
But we all know these guys are close, organized their stories and only through prosecution will we the American people see any justice for what GWB and cohorts call a government.
Pelosi could’ve spoken on the House floor without fear of prosecution thanks to the Constitution, but she’d likely have lost her security clearance and her Speakership as a result.
You people are so blinded by Cheney hatred that you can’t think logically or strategically. The stuff about waterboarding etc. has been out there since 2005. Everyone in the country has already made up his or her mind about it. In fact, the real surprise behind the OLC memo release was HOW LITTLE EIT were used. From previously leaked reports, it sounded like the CIA was dousing every A-Q terrorist who came through the door. So there’s NOTHING Obama can release now that will prove to be anything more than a yawn.
On the other hand, there is now irrefutable proof that Pelosi, and others in leadership KNEW all along. The only people who think differently, and think that she was a powerless victim, are parse tongued democrat errand boys who will swallow anything.
On the other hand, Cheney has nothing to lose. He knows what the memos say, and when people find out–well… Obama is going to look even worse than he already does.
Further harping will only alienate the CIA even more, and make Obama look like a dunce who is willing to harm national security in order to try and get back at Cheney for hurting his pride. Since he’s still practicing Clinton era rendition–the cries of outrage that “we don’t torture” look pretty lame and shallow.
But hey, go for it. I love to see Obama shooting himself in the foot.
Isn’t it funny how many wingnuts are rushing to give President Obama advice on this issue? They almost always end with some kind of comment about it blowing up in his and our face in the end. The problem with these people is that they truly can’t see past political gains. They don’t understand that people actually want to find the truth no matter what the truth ends up being. They could never imagine actually wanting an investigation if it would hurt a Republican. They are more loyal to the Republican party than they are to America. Well I have said it before but I will say it again, I want everybody who had a hand in this investigated. If Democrats are complicit then as Keith Olbermann said the other day “they can go to hell too”. This isn’t a partisan issue. This is about the rule of law.
“If Democrats are complicit then as Keith Olbermann said the other day “they can go to hell too”. This isn’t a partisan issue. This is about the rule of law.”
You just keep on telling yourself that sweet thing. And I’m with you 100% Hey, let it ALL hang out. Clinton era rendition–what Eric Holder knew, and when he knew it, did anyone get waterboarded in Egypt under Clinton’s administration, the meeting notes from Pelosi’s Sept 2002 briefing, and most importantly, what did KSM have in mind for us that he gave up after the dunkings?
More more more! Get Cheney in front of the congress–hey, he says he wants to testify.
I just love the smell of Napalm in the morning.
Michelle
.
Then lets go back and revisit Iran Contra so we can lock up the first President Bush as well. Hell we can do this all day, I don’t care. If they broke the law throw away the key. You can’t scare us with that dumb sh*t. We aren’t cowards like you.
I disagree with those who state that secrecy laws prevent an individual such as Nancy Pelosi from speaking out against illegal acts. Given, that she may have been unsure of the legality of the acts there is nothing that would have prevented her from directing research by her staff using hypothetical situations. Once she determined acts were illegal she could come forth and demand an accounting by initiating impeachment procedings against all officials involved. Government has been allowed to hid behind secrecy and national security laws for too long. There are sufficient retired personnel that have the clearaance level to participate as jurors, if a trial devulging truly classified information must be held.
Hell yeah!
I mean, I’m not a coward. I just like the idea of re-opening Iran Contra. ******** sold high tech weaponry to our enemies (Iran), against the law, for personal and political gain.
Regan is dead, but it ain’t too late to lock up daddy Bush. Justice delayed is still justice served, I say.
Andrew why stop there!? Why not dig up Abe Lincoln and put him in the dock for war crimes against Southern POWs at Camp Douglas, where he can join Winnie for the atrocities committed against German POWs in the London Cage. Then there’s Woodrow Wilson for imprisoning anti-war dissidents, FDR for illegally locking up the Japanese, Ike for allowing American GIs to shoot surrendering German soldiers. Kennedy for assassinating Diem. Hey, I think we could even dig up a little dirt on George Washington with a little effort.
When you start considering the big picture, kind of makes what Cheney is suppose to be guilty of look minor, especially in light of the fact that EIT saved, according to the former VP, tens of thousands of lives.
Boy oh boy, the stuff in those Memos that Obama refuses to release must be EXPLOSIVE–as in NUCLEAR.
What is NEVER brought up in this conversation about torture is that nobody seems to care about all the possibly innocent people that are tortured. After all the innocent people that were rounded up by bounty hunters for easy money does anyone doubt that many of these innocent civilians were probably tortured for no reason? Some of them probably confessed to absolutely nothing just to make the torture stop. Unconscionable that we, the United States of America, would think this is OK. Check out the film In the Name of the Father with Daniel Day Lewis for insight as to what this kind of policy does to a nation. Peace.
I see the leftist pigs are doing their utmost to politicize justice and cover the ample a$$es of Democrats like Piglosi.
.
‘Although some useful information was produced, the report concluded that “it is difficult to determine conclusively whether interrogations have provided information critical to interdicting specific imminent attacks,” according to the Justice Department’s declassified summary of it.’
.
How much does anyone want to bet that Holder knows as much about protecting America as he does about bringing tax cheats to justice?
It still hurts my brain to know that whether-or-not-to-torture is an issue up for discussion. The fact that it’s seen as a partisan political issue instead of a basic human rights issue just goes to show how far we have sunk on a moral scale.
Release all the memos. Torture is a crime, no matter who is responsible. We have a duty as a nation to address what was done in our name.
Perhaps those of us not old enough to remember WW2 should brush up on the story of the 10 Japanese who were hanged for waterboarding, I think this came out from the Tokyo trials.Also the one japanese soldier who was sent to prison for 15 years for the same thing. Also the declaration by Reagan about torture.
Of course not to mention the declaration by George Bush on Al Arabiya.
“Perhaps those of us not old enough to remember WW2 should brush up on the story of the 10 Japanese who were hanged for waterboarding, I think this came out from the Tokyo trials.”
.
Maybe you should read the real history instead of the muddled “history” according to Obama and Andrew Sullivan and John McCain. Those who were hanged were guilty of waterboarding, and other more severe forms of torture, and murdering American soldiers.
JSykes, you kneed to dump the Japanese Waterboarding talking point. The Japanese would fill stomachs and lungs with water, then beat the victim, burn them with cigarettes etc.–all to gratuitously inflict suffering–nothing more, nothing less.
Not so with KSM and his two buddies. In their case we are talking about a highly supervised procedure, one used on more than 20,000 of our own people, that was ONLY resorted to when other methods failed. And it saved countless lives.
Hey, Michelle, did they slice genitals with scapels, like our soldiers did, too?
People who support torture deserve to BE tortured. What a pathetic excuse for a human being you are. Go to hell, you sick ****.
Neener Neener!
How tiresome all you silly gits are. Obama’s ploy blew up in his face so he is doubling down. If he persists he will ride this issue right into the toilet.
Nothing illegal was done. No one will be prosecuted. No one will be going to jail. Quote me.
I’m sorry I’m late to this thread, but on the other hand, I’m glad I arrived when I did. It is some of the most hilariously muddled thinking on the internet and I hope the comments are kept in some sort of time capsule so that individuals can see how ridiculous the G.W. Bush administration was, and how incredibly unhinged it revealed many Republicans to be… I guess the most ample evidence begins and ends with someone saying that Dick Cheney is slithering through the weeds, gleefully waiting for these memos to be released so that the American people can see what a great patriot he was. The last time I checked, Dubya and Dick had almost 8 years to figure out which “legacy burnishing” memos they wanted leaked and which damaging tales they wanted to remain classified. If there’s so much in the record that needs to come to light, why wasn’t any of it released on January 19, 2009? I mean honestly, are there really people in the world who believe that Dick Cheney, the guy who had the Naval Observatory blurred on Google Earth, is now, in his semi-retirement, a beacon of truth, justice, and full-disclosure? You’re living in a dream world!
Wow let the spinning begin !! While the White House selectively releases files, it gives all you lefties a chance to somehow save San Fran Nan’s butt. lol. THIS oughta be good! Bring on the “Truth Commissions”!!!
“The wingnuts keep saying “Nancy Pelosi should be prosecuted too then”. What would the charge be? Illegal listening?”
To be aware of a crime and make no effort to report it or stop it is a crime itself. EVERYONE involved should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of INTERNATIONAL law, not just “the other side” aka Republicans. EVERYONE INVOLVED is a criminal. EVERYONE. Even those on “your” side.
Although some useful information was produced, the report concluded that “it is difficult to determine conclusively whether interrogations have provided information critical to interdicting specific imminent attacks,” according to the Justice Department’s declassified summary of it.
Why the outrage? The report as stated above says “some useful information was producted”. Well it would be helpful to know what that information was before you determine this is a smoking gun report. There is no tactic which can be verified to explicitly know that is the only way to find information….you are asking to prove a negative.
Being ” difficult to determine” is a far cry from actually knowing…then again maybe another plane into a building would have confirmed for you.
Several things. First, I don’t care if they were Democrat or Republican. If they were involved in torturing people counter to the law, then they should be prosecuted. Period. This is why law is there. The government is not exempt from the law, no matter how special they think they are. We have a criminal law that states any American, regardless of where they commit the torture, and regardless of the nationality of the victim, is subject to criminal punishment up to the death penalty.
Second, to the poster who thinks waterboarding is the worst we’ve done, you should really look at a couple of cases to read the truly horrifying stuff. Gitmo is nothing compared to the extraordinary rendition program.
Looking forward to reading the memos, but only so far as I want some of these guys prosecuted.
But they still won’t release the documents cheney requests.. funny… pretty good way to make sure the debate goes your way when you selectively release info.
The idea of prosecuting for torture is being made to look extremely difficult because of “political implications”. Well, there’s a time to say, “To hell with political implications, start the prosecutions!” If Nancy has to stand trial, then Nancy has to stand trial. Believe me, that trial will bring out even MORE interesting facts, even if she is found “not guilty”. If we don’t even START prosecutions, then every soldier and every civilian in the country can be tortured in the future with NO HELP from ANYONE, domestically or internationally. If you want your future children, grandchildren and greatgrandchildren tortured by someone in the future, then BY ALL MEANS, stand pat, excuse or even advocate for torture, but don’t forget that things can happen VERY QUICKLY and maybe you will be experiencing torture yourself before too long. The “right” “NOT TO BE TORTURED” is rather basic, unless you think you can be the torturer and never be tortured yourself. Remember, Sadam Hussein’s last letters whined and cried about “being tortured” and how he “couldn’t sleep” for the sound of “others being tortured”. The tables can turn on the torturers VERY QUICKLY in this life. Hold international and domestic law FIRM against torture and you just increase your chances quite a bit of never being tortured and never learning that your children, grandchildren or greatgrandchildren died screaming.
The only crime that I think that Pelosi could be charged with is Misprision of felony”~ an offense under United States federal law after being codified in 1909 under 18 U.S.C. § 4:
“Whoever, having knowledge of the actual commission of a felony cognizable by a court of the United States, conceals and does not as soon as possible make known the same to some judge or other person in civil or military authority under the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.”
This offense, however, requires active concealment of a known felony rather than merely failing to report it. What does one do when the nations highest sworn law enforcement officials and the President are in on the deal? I suppose that she could have gone to a Supreme Court Justice and revealed it.But it’s now generally acknowledged that Pelosi wasn’t privy to the actual torture until very well on in the process. There are many holes in the CIA roster about what EIDs were disclosed and whether those that were disclosed were made known to both Parties equally. It appears that in some cases the vague references were presented as “prospective…based on results of legal analysis”…when they had already occurred.
Cheney was greasing the wheels for torture well in advance of having any prisoners precisely because torture was a reliable way of producing what Cheney refers to as “actionable intelligence.”
Of course, “actionable intelligence” need not have been true or even remotely accurate as long as it was useful for Cheney’s purposes. Torture (especially repetitive torture) was uniquely suited to fabricating “actionable intelligence” as Cheney’s victims eventually learned to create whatever sort of details the Torturer in Chief sought (such as a link between 9/11 and Iraq).
What part of the revealing of state secrets results in criminal prosecution seems to escape the GOP? While I don’t agree with it, it’s there … just ask any civilian who has served on a jury, and was found to be discussing the trial, researching the crime, etc. outside of the courtroom. They would be subject to criminal prosecution.
It would appear that the logic of the repugs is that since Pelosi was subject to state secrets, she’s just as guilty as Bush and the rest of his cabal of criminals. That said, I’m guessing the GOP would be okay with prosecuting those repugs who were privy to said state secrets, too, right people?
I’d love to know exactly what torture gleened that prevented the deaths of ‘hundreds of thousands’ of Americans, per Dickhe*d Cheney. Considering how he skews the Constitution, I can only imagine what fantasies Dickhe*d has gleened from his ‘proof.’
“Hey, I think we could even dig up a little dirt on George Washington with a little effort.”
Hey, Michelle, here’s some “dirt” on George Washington. Keep in mind that this was while British Armies were chasing him all over the country and half the local population, at least, was Tory. In spite of this, he and Congress refused to use torture, even though it was used against American soldiers.
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1217-30.htm
The report was written by Valerie Plame and Joseph Wilson. The Cheney haters in the CIA.
“While the White House selectively releases files, it gives all you lefties a chance to somehow save San Fran Nan’s butt.” Rick 554
Don’t ever come to S.F. Rick. “All us lefties” will beat the living **** out of you, you little prick.
What did Pelosi know and when did she know it? Oh, I forgot, she’s braindead. Nevermind …
dear Michelle’slanvinsneakers
your words
“Not so with KSM and his two buddies. In their case we are talking about a highly supervised procedure, one used on more than 20,000 of our own people, that was ONLY resorted to when other methods failed. And it saved countless lives”.
in fact the final part is what burns me up. “AND IT SAVED COUNTLESS LIVES”?!
No it did not and your buying into the propaganda if you believe that. Torture is Torture as defined by our laws and treatys we signed in good faith with our countrymen and allies abroad.
Stop thinking that our government (past or present) is anything more then a bunch of people that can make wonderful strides or terrible mistakes in our world.
This is not a political discussion it is about the law and nothing more. Is Waterboarding torture? YES, is it against our country and international law? YES
Was it done by the past administration? YES (Dick admitted it himself in public)! Then the admistration of the law must be carried out fairly. No exceptions (Yes I wish it would go away but sadly our leaders did this and should be punished to the fullest extent the law allows).
So the report says some information was obtained, but no conclusive evidence as to if this information could have been obtained elsewhere.
To me that means not proved one way or the other, so there is just as much reason to believe this worked as there is to believe it didn’t.
But go ahead, assume what you want to fulfill your agenda.
A very astute observation — you have to “make your bones” to run with us. Or we will make them for you. Control of Congress is all about blackmail, of which the master was J Edgar Hoover.
She says, no. In her interview with Maddow:
As I understand it, her options were to talk to those who already knew: the CIA and the White House, both of whom would have said, “Chill”.
Another thing to keep in mind is the Reynolds case, the first ever use of the State Secrets Privilege, back in the 50’s, when a group of widows sued the Air Force for the deaths of their husbands. State Secrets was invoked, claiming that secret weapons were on the plane, and total silence must prevail. Fifty years later it was declassified, and, lo & behold, no secret weapons, only shoddy maintenance caused the crash, and the gov’t were covering their butts. My guess is that happens more often than not.
Article I, Section 9, Clause 6 of the Constitution says:
This publication was abrogated at the time of the Manhattan Project, and never reinstated. 40% of the Pentagon budget is blacked out. We are 40% of a military dictatorship. Is that a grammatical statement? I dunno . . .
TO ALL YOU PELOSI DEFEFENDERS do you think you know more than Jonathan Turley? Do you know more about the law, State Secrets Act and the Constitution than he does? …So when i hear people defending her that she was “sworn to secrecy” and her only crime was “listening” you make me sick to my stomach! She’s gona have to come up with an answer better than that because that excuse won’t work for WAR CRIMES!!!! Watch!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Zp_1Otla_U
Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld should be in prison awaiting execution for war crimes, treason, torture, violations of international law, and violations of the U. S. Constitution. Oh, and by the way, if we need anyone to “pull the switch” I volunteer.
We can’t save the contractors at Harvard and Hopkins. They’re doctors, nurses and psychiatrists. They were paidcash by CIA to go to the black sites and help. They were hired so they could be payed. They have to pay and compensate. That should stop greedy, unethical people who aren’t serving their countrly like the military doctors, nurses and psychiatrists.
What Obama needs to do is stop shifting focus away from the fact that he has no idea what he is doing and is in over his head to actions that occurred five years ago under a different administration. This is doing nothing good for our country. All it is doing is widening the rift that is splitting this country in half.
For those of you who have been making unsupported statements about torture (most of you), I will share some relevant parts of the Convention Against Torture And Other Cruel, Inhuman Or Degrading Treatment Or Punishment, which, according to the United States Constitution, is the “supreme law of the land”:
Part I
Article 1
For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
—–
This means, among other things, that effectiveness is does not make torture allowable.
—-
Article 2
Each State Party shall take effective legislative, administrative, judicial or other measures to prevent acts of torture in any territory under its jurisdiction.
No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat or war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.
An order from a superior officer or a public authority may not be invoked as a justification of torture.
—–
Do you all understand? No citizens of a country that signed and ratified this Convention (the USA, for one) can torture, end of story.
—–
Then there is U.S. Code, TITLE 18, PART I, CHAPTER 113C, § 2340:
As used in this chapter—
(1) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;
(2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—
(A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
(B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;
(C) the threat of imminent death; or
(D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality; and
(3) “United States” means the several States of the United States, the District of Columbia, and the commonwealths, territories, and possessions of the United States.
——–
“The threat of imminent death” clearly includes waterboarding. Plus, US forces and personnel have been responsible for about 100 deaths of prisoners. Many of these have been homicides:
Basically [an August 30, 2003 memo] said that as far as they [senior commanders] knew there were no ROE [Rules of Engagement] for interrogations. They were still struggling with the definition for a detainee. It also said that commanders were tired of us taking casualties and they [told interrogators they] wanted the gloves to come off . . . . Other than a memo saying that they were to be considered “unprivileged combatants” we received no guidance from them [on the status of detainees].
—Chief Warrant Officer Lewis Welshofer
Testifying during his Court Martial for Death of Iraqi General Abed Hamed Mowhoush
January 19, 2006
Since August 2002, nearly 100 detainees have died while in the hands of U.S. officials in the global “war on terror.” According to the U.S. military’s own classifications, 34 of these cases are suspected or confirmed homicides; Human Rights First has identified another 11 in which the facts suggest death as a result of physical abuse or harsh conditions of detention. In close to half the deaths Human Rights First surveyed, the cause of death remains officially undetermined or unannounced. Overall, eight people in U.S. custody were tortured to death.
—–
There is, of course, much more, including the Geneva Conventions and the Nuremberg Principles, both part of US law.
So, the false argument about the supposed terrorist acts that were “prevented” by torture is irrelevant. The law of the land is that torture is NEVER allowed.
As to Pelosi’s (and other Democrats’) complicity, read Constitutional lawyer Glen Greenwald at http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/12/09/democrats/index.html.
It includes the following:
And efforts to apologize for what these Congressional Democrats have done by claiming that they “were virtually helpless to respond,” or suggesting that knowingly inconsequential expressions of private protest are somehow noble, are counter-productive. Why excuse or apologize for the profound failure of those who seek leadership positions on the Intelligence Committee — who, after all, are being briefed precisely because they are expected to act when they learn of illegal behavior — when they abdicate their responsibilities? That only encourages such malfeasance to continue.
umm… did anybody read the actuall important line?
“Although some useful information was produced, the report concluded that “it is difficult to determine conclusively whether interrogations have provided information critical to interdicting specific imminent attacks,”
this is hardly a conclusive disagreement with Cheney.
I hate the guy too but this report doesn’t say torture didn’t work.
It actually says some information was gained and according to allies it can’t be concluded whether an imminent attack was stopped or not.
Oh! Jeeze!, now its going to get interesting. I hope Cheny goes to jail.
Having very close ties to D.C., first off this information is not earth shattering and its release isn’t Obama calling Cheney’s bluff. Secondly, any high level official will tell you that EIT’s definitely generated intel that was beneficial to American interests. Let the media spin the release of these memo’s as they see fit. The truth of the matter is that most liberals and soft conservatives have no idea what we are up against out in the evil world of terrorism. McCain is against torture because the vietnamese tortured him when he would not do what they wanted for not specifically for information he wouldn’t divulge. And if you want to see what torture is check the Daniel Pearl beheading. We as a nation need to realize that until we start beheading combatants, using shock therapy where the prisoners die or cut off fingers we are highly ethical when it comes to the treatment of our prisoners. I wish many of you soft baggers could be a fly on the wall in about 190 other countries across this world and see how they treat a US soldier or citizen for that matter when they are being detained and questioned.
Prosecute all of the Bush Torturers. Federal Law(Torture)Title-18 Part-1 Chp-113C 2340,2340A,2340B SEE http://tinyurl.com/besdd3
Torture is always illegal.
SIGN The Petitions to Prosecute Them
http://ANGRYVOTERS.ORG
.
I wish LA would have been hit, hell I wish that whole damn state would slide off into the ocean with every libtard and beaner along with it.
We deserve to be hit again and again, our soldiers deserve to have their heads cut off because….Americans are MEAN, we do nothing to help the world, WE are the cause for all evil. Obama needs to suffer the same as Bush, Tyrants the both of them! 17,000 more troops HA! anti war prez my azz.
Let’s remember who the enemy is. They would do anything to destroy us. They have tried and will continue to try. Sometimes protecting our lives and freedom isn’t pretty, but necessary. It’s them or us. I prefer us and to use any method to protect me, my children and friends from terrorists. Each of us would do anything we could to protect our children, so let’s allow our leaders to do what is necessary to prevent terrorist attacks on our citizens.
Once again my fellow dems are leaning too far left. They seem to like shooting themselves in the foot. Look war is war. Remember Spineless Pelosi said impeachment is off the table. I wonder why. Remember Clintons impeachment hearings. The republicans are sore losers and out for themselves. If you think that its okay to take the oil, and have a corporate global economy then the war is for you. The American people were lied to, and thats that. The majority voted for Bush, It never should have been close but the american people had their head in the sand. And we deserve what we get. Wake-up. As the last great republican president Dwight D. Eisenhower warned us that “In the councils of government we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals so that security and liberty may prosper together.” War is supposed to be the last resort. But greed and profit got in the way. The reality is all there, just open your eyes American and stop living in a dream-world fantasy.
McCain’s Military Commissions Act of 2006 provides the president with the ability to rule what is or is not torture. Just because other laws say Waterboarding and other methods used by the CIA and Military violate other laws; Bush said they were not torture.
That, by U.S. Law, makes it legal to torture anyone with methods the President will claim aren’t torture.
“If the President does it, it isn’t torture” becomes a true statement under American law.
Repeal the MCA of 2006 or have it determined in it’s entirety Unconstitutional.
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE call Cheney out! He has his facts in order. Yes, lets see ALL the docs!!!
Bravo Bill Michtom! We should by rights buy you lunch for your good leg work. Those two posts are going in my PDA.
To expand on your theme, it’s effective to shoot kids that walk on your lawn. That doesn’t make it legal. Likewise it’s not legal to destroy a country, kill a million-plus of its citizens and drive four or five million into exile, based on the testimony of someone who told you everything he knew when you were using traditional methods (FBI) and then made up the story you demanded only under torture (CIA) that Saddam was behind 9/11.
The public thinks (how? don’t ask) the CIA is all about gathering intelligence, when 90% of their business is destroying other sovereign states for the benefit of Wall Street. The CIA is the gangrenous core of the dark forces of the world, at least since the fall of the USSR, and to a great extent they (or rather their predecessors, and their underlying nest: the international bankers whence they spring) brought the USSR into being (e.g., Jacob Schiff bragged on his death bed how he spent $20 million to bring down the Tsar. Three gold shipments in 1920 alone, from Lenin to Kuhn, Loeb & Company and Morgan Guaranty Trust repaid the $20 million to the bankers, and this was just a small down payment).
If not for a young naval officer named Richard Nixon in whose charge the Karl Blessing files were put for analysis, his mentor and sponsor Allen Dulles (and brother John F.) would have stood in the dock at Nuremberg.
The bigger picture — the bigger picture. That’s what gets lost in all this talk. The whole of the story has to be the object of discussion. Don’t you agree?
The full report remains closely held, although White House officials have told **political allies** that they intend to declassify it for public release when the debate quiets over last month’s release of the Justice Department’s interrogation memos…
I so want to know what Cheney’s philosophy is on *** for tat or what’s good for the goose is good for the gander – What is his belief on other countries torturing US citizens, military and govt. agents? Isn’t this a central part of the discussion as it relates to the Geneva Convention – he has not yet spoken on that and I think it is very, very important in his discussion.
P.S. Whatever the past, what is our torture law/philosophy going forward as it relates to the Geneva Convention and all that entails. Is the current and/or future US law/philosophy that we no longer abide by the Geneva convention and from now on we agree that we abide that other countries may torture our military and citizens, as we do others? What actually is our stance as a Nation on this?
Let there be no doubt, Dick Cheney is a full-blown delusional paranoid. I have thought so for years, but after reading about his fear of being (or having been) poisoned after 9/11, I am convinced. All of those disappearances into “undisclosed locations” turn out to be attempts to escape further poisoning!
I wish the MSM would address Cheney’s paranoia and his “fear of fear,” instead of treating his outbursts as sane policy utterances! They aren’t!! He is not the first mentally ill person to hold high office. But he certainly is the most irksome!!!!
PEOPLE GET FOCUSED — OUR TROOPS IN AFGHANISTAN–AND IN THE ARAB WORLD–WILL REAP THE REVENGE FROM THE PEOPLE OF THOSE COUNTRIES WHEN THEY SEE THE VIDEOS! OUR SOLDIERS BLOOD WILL BE IN THE STREETS FROM THE RAGE OF THE PEOPLE IN THE AREA IN WHICH OUR GOVT HAS DEPLOYED OUR VERY OWN SOLDIERS.
The issue isn’t whether torture is right or wrong–OUR GOVT IS PLACING EVERY TROOP IN THAT REGION (and beyond) at RISK! The ordinary people from Iraqi– Afghanistan to Saudi Arabia will want revenge–They will take it out against the first American they see.
Also–IN AMERICA THE RISE OF VIOLENCE MAY INCREASE IN OUR STREETS!
We need TO LET OBAMA KNOW IF OUR TROOPS ARE STILL IN THAT REGION–DO NOT RELEASE THE 100 interviews, a review of the videotapes and 38,000 pages of documents. I HAVE SEEN JUST A GLIMPSE OF ONE VIDEO–BELIEVE ME THERE WILL BE BLOODSHED.
OBAMA NEEDS TO BACK OFF–AND FOR ONCE PUT THE SAFETY OF OUR TROOPS FIRST! MY GOD–BELIEVE ME–THE TROOPS–AMERICANS ABROAD–AMERICANS AT HOME WILL NOT BE SAFE!
AT A LATER TIME, THE ISSUE COULD BE ADDRESSED ABOUT TORTURE–BUT NOW– PLEASE HELP ME BY NOTIFYING THE ELECTED OFFICIALS TO REMEMBER OUR TROOPS–REMEMBER THE FAMILY MEMBERS OF THE TROOPS STATIONED IN THAT REGION!
WE NEED YOUR VOICE AND ALL YOUR EFFORTS ON THIS ISSUE! IF OBAMA DOESN’T PAY ATTENTION TO OUR VOICES–OUR HEARTS–THEN HE (ALONG WITH HOMELAND SECURITY DIRECTOR) MUST WANT MORE BLOODSHED AMONG THE INNONCENT!
OBAMA WAS THINKING OF PUTTING THE INTERRORGATORS ON TRIAL–SO THAT TELLS YOU FROM OBAMA’S VIEW–WHY WOULD AN AMERICAN PRESIDENT WANT TO EVEN RELEASE THE DOCUMENTS–VIDEOS–WHEN THE END RESULT WILL BE MORE HATRED IN THE WORLD FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE!
its been an 8 year Rep circus, its going to be a fun ride. makes a ******** look like nothing
To whom it may concern:
“troop” is a word that refers, not to an individual, but a group, derived from the Old Norse word “thorp”, a village.
Webster says:
Honestly sounds like typical CIA . As well as typical executive meddling.
Honestly sounds like typical CIA . As well as typical executive meddling.
Selective declassification is always nice, always gives you the big picture.
They recorded three separate versions of the single; the one recorded on X&Y was based on an early cut of the song. ,