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	<title>Comments on: Politico&#8217;s Mike Allen Defends Use Of Anonymous Bush Torture Memo Spin</title>
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	<link>http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/torture/politicos-mike-allen-defends-use-of-anonymous-bush-torture-memo-spin/</link>
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		<title>By: Gus</title>
		<link>http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/torture/politicos-mike-allen-defends-use-of-anonymous-bush-torture-memo-spin/comment-page-1/#comment-10700</link>
		<dc:creator>Gus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2009 02:47:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/?p=5095#comment-10700</guid>
		<description>Mike Allen is a hack. That is all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike Allen is a hack. That is all.</p>
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		<title>By: AllButCertain</title>
		<link>http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/torture/politicos-mike-allen-defends-use-of-anonymous-bush-torture-memo-spin/comment-page-1/#comment-10694</link>
		<dc:creator>AllButCertain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2009 01:54:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/?p=5095#comment-10694</guid>
		<description>Ken, the Murdoch name has some resonance here, doesn&#039;t it?   And maybe lazy, starstruck human nature.  As you say, it must be a complex thing, but the parallel is striking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ken, the Murdoch name has some resonance here, doesn&#8217;t it?   And maybe lazy, starstruck human nature.  As you say, it must be a complex thing, but the parallel is striking.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken Lovell</title>
		<link>http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/torture/politicos-mike-allen-defends-use-of-anonymous-bush-torture-memo-spin/comment-page-1/#comment-10691</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Lovell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2009 01:28:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/?p=5095#comment-10691</guid>
		<description>AllButCertain it&#039;s a complex phenomenon that I can&#039;t do justice to in a comment and don&#039;t pretend to understand completely anyway. But 11 years was a long time and many of the current lead journalists made their careers by cultivating networks amongst the conservatives which also gave them a distinctive style. Journalism here has also degenerated mainly to assembling both on and off-the-record statements about something, asking the other party to give a response, and then reporting the exchanges with commentary as if they are a football game. Opinion polls are used almost weekly to keep score of who&#039;s winning the game.

Anyway when the government changed, these journos seemed incapable of coping. After having the same network of routine go-to people for 11 years I think they had no alternative way to fuinction. Incapable of independent analysis, the only way they could get a story was to quote others and they had internalised the belief that the conservatives were the legitimate authority figures. Consequently for months after the election, any government initiative was analysed and interpreted according to the comments of conservatives. 

The transition has been gradual. There are still a few Murdoch News Ltd hacks who are little more than shills for the conservatives (and like Allen get very whiny about bloggers) but a new generation of reporters is slowly establishing a relationship of mutual dependency with the current government. If Labor stays in power for 11 years I&#039;m sure the same thing will happen in reverse when they finally get kicked out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AllButCertain it&#8217;s a complex phenomenon that I can&#8217;t do justice to in a comment and don&#8217;t pretend to understand completely anyway. But 11 years was a long time and many of the current lead journalists made their careers by cultivating networks amongst the conservatives which also gave them a distinctive style. Journalism here has also degenerated mainly to assembling both on and off-the-record statements about something, asking the other party to give a response, and then reporting the exchanges with commentary as if they are a football game. Opinion polls are used almost weekly to keep score of who&#8217;s winning the game.</p>
<p>Anyway when the government changed, these journos seemed incapable of coping. After having the same network of routine go-to people for 11 years I think they had no alternative way to fuinction. Incapable of independent analysis, the only way they could get a story was to quote others and they had internalised the belief that the conservatives were the legitimate authority figures. Consequently for months after the election, any government initiative was analysed and interpreted according to the comments of conservatives. </p>
<p>The transition has been gradual. There are still a few Murdoch News Ltd hacks who are little more than shills for the conservatives (and like Allen get very whiny about bloggers) but a new generation of reporters is slowly establishing a relationship of mutual dependency with the current government. If Labor stays in power for 11 years I&#8217;m sure the same thing will happen in reverse when they finally get kicked out.</p>
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		<title>By: AllButCertain</title>
		<link>http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/torture/politicos-mike-allen-defends-use-of-anonymous-bush-torture-memo-spin/comment-page-1/#comment-10690</link>
		<dc:creator>AllButCertain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2009 01:06:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/?p=5095#comment-10690</guid>
		<description>Ken Lovell - Really interesting observation.  Do you think the press in Australia was in a rut with their old sources?  Or did it really take them 18 months (!) to absorb the fact that the guard had changed?  Curious phenomenon if it&#039;s the second.  But it makes sense on some psychological level--change in authority figures, disruption of comfort zones, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ken Lovell &#8211; Really interesting observation.  Do you think the press in Australia was in a rut with their old sources?  Or did it really take them 18 months (!) to absorb the fact that the guard had changed?  Curious phenomenon if it&#8217;s the second.  But it makes sense on some psychological level&#8211;change in authority figures, disruption of comfort zones, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken Lovell</title>
		<link>http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/torture/politicos-mike-allen-defends-use-of-anonymous-bush-torture-memo-spin/comment-page-1/#comment-10688</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Lovell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2009 00:41:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/?p=5095#comment-10688</guid>
		<description>Craig-bob schwartz nails it. Surely the only &#039;official Bush view&#039; can come from Bush himself or an authorised spokesperson. Or is Allen suggesting that there is some sort of Bush administration-in-exile, holding pretend cabinet meetings to endorse &#039;official positions&#039;?

The comments in question are personal opinions lacking any official standing and absent the identity of their author, they lack any significance whatsoever.

We had this same phenomenon in Australia for a while when a conservative government got kicked out after 11 years. Not only the conservative politicians but also the media continued to behave as if the old mob was still the legitimate administration and nothing could validly be said or done unless they endorsed it. It&#039;s only now, 18 months after the change of government, that the media has started to comprehend that all its old anonymous sources are has-beens and nobody wants to read their opinions about anything any more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Craig-bob schwartz nails it. Surely the only &#8216;official Bush view&#8217; can come from Bush himself or an authorised spokesperson. Or is Allen suggesting that there is some sort of Bush administration-in-exile, holding pretend cabinet meetings to endorse &#8216;official positions&#8217;?</p>
<p>The comments in question are personal opinions lacking any official standing and absent the identity of their author, they lack any significance whatsoever.</p>
<p>We had this same phenomenon in Australia for a while when a conservative government got kicked out after 11 years. Not only the conservative politicians but also the media continued to behave as if the old mob was still the legitimate administration and nothing could validly be said or done unless they endorsed it. It&#8217;s only now, 18 months after the change of government, that the media has started to comprehend that all its old anonymous sources are has-beens and nobody wants to read their opinions about anything any more.</p>
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		<title>By: Lazare St. Gare</title>
		<link>http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/torture/politicos-mike-allen-defends-use-of-anonymous-bush-torture-memo-spin/comment-page-1/#comment-10654</link>
		<dc:creator>Lazare St. Gare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Apr 2009 16:49:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/?p=5095#comment-10654</guid>
		<description>If Mike Allen can call himself a journalist, I can call myself a star basketball player. And I&#039;m 5 feet 4.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If Mike Allen can call himself a journalist, I can call myself a star basketball player. And I&#8217;m 5 feet 4.</p>
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		<title>By: craig-bob schwartz</title>
		<link>http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/torture/politicos-mike-allen-defends-use-of-anonymous-bush-torture-memo-spin/comment-page-1/#comment-10645</link>
		<dc:creator>craig-bob schwartz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Apr 2009 15:30:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/?p=5095#comment-10645</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think I caught anyone in these comments picking up on this aspect of Mike Allen&#039;s response.

&quot;Not ideal, but better than making readers wonder what the official Bush view is.&quot; 

Pardon me, how can an anonymous critic be credited with the &quot;official Bush view&quot;? To be &quot;official&quot; doesn&#039;t someone with the proper administration credentials need to go on record with their name included?!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think I caught anyone in these comments picking up on this aspect of Mike Allen&#8217;s response.</p>
<p>&#8220;Not ideal, but better than making readers wonder what the official Bush view is.&#8221; </p>
<p>Pardon me, how can an anonymous critic be credited with the &#8220;official Bush view&#8221;? To be &#8220;official&#8221; doesn&#8217;t someone with the proper administration credentials need to go on record with their name included?!</p>
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		<title>By: Bud Byrd</title>
		<link>http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/torture/politicos-mike-allen-defends-use-of-anonymous-bush-torture-memo-spin/comment-page-1/#comment-10596</link>
		<dc:creator>Bud Byrd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Apr 2009 01:13:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/?p=5095#comment-10596</guid>
		<description>Let&#039;s face it.  Virtually all that is written in newspapers, blogs, books and elsewhere; all that is spoken in public, on the airwaves, on cable and satellite feeds ...in fact all human communications is a few truths, lots of fiction and a whole bunch of bullshit anted-up by someone trying to convince you of something ...including this comment.  We have this innate flaw in our character that drives us to believe (as facts) that which someone &quot;in high position&quot; tells us ...whether or not the name is attached.

Facts ...you would think that facts would always be the truth, the complete truth with no room to equivocate, shade or otherwise manipulate. Facts are facts ...not facts according to you or facts according to me ...just facts, a piece or pieces of information that cannot be viewed in another light ...in another way.

Facts are absolutes. Lies, half truths, etc., are not facts no matter the source, anonymously spoken or not.  So why worry about Mike Allen&#039;s source.  His or her name is irrelevant.  Undoubtedly, the next words out of the &quot;source&#039;s&quot; mouth will be shaded another way to meet the needs of the source&#039;s then audience.

Science and math are the only methodologies that provide a medium for communicating &quot;facts&quot; between people ...the only purveyors of absolute, repeatable facts.  Everything else has some degree of opinion attached.

Best regards,

BB</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let&#8217;s face it.  Virtually all that is written in newspapers, blogs, books and elsewhere; all that is spoken in public, on the airwaves, on cable and satellite feeds &#8230;in fact all human communications is a few truths, lots of fiction and a whole bunch of bullshit anted-up by someone trying to convince you of something &#8230;including this comment.  We have this innate flaw in our character that drives us to believe (as facts) that which someone &#8220;in high position&#8221; tells us &#8230;whether or not the name is attached.</p>
<p>Facts &#8230;you would think that facts would always be the truth, the complete truth with no room to equivocate, shade or otherwise manipulate. Facts are facts &#8230;not facts according to you or facts according to me &#8230;just facts, a piece or pieces of information that cannot be viewed in another light &#8230;in another way.</p>
<p>Facts are absolutes. Lies, half truths, etc., are not facts no matter the source, anonymously spoken or not.  So why worry about Mike Allen&#8217;s source.  His or her name is irrelevant.  Undoubtedly, the next words out of the &#8220;source&#8217;s&#8221; mouth will be shaded another way to meet the needs of the source&#8217;s then audience.</p>
<p>Science and math are the only methodologies that provide a medium for communicating &#8220;facts&#8221; between people &#8230;the only purveyors of absolute, repeatable facts.  Everything else has some degree of opinion attached.</p>
<p>Best regards,</p>
<p>BB</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/torture/politicos-mike-allen-defends-use-of-anonymous-bush-torture-memo-spin/comment-page-1/#comment-10548</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:30:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/?p=5095#comment-10548</guid>
		<description>Sorry, make that Time magazine, regarding my reference to Allen&#039;s former employer. Time and Newsweek both operate by the same sort of access-brokering journalistic standards though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, make that Time magazine, regarding my reference to Allen&#8217;s former employer. Time and Newsweek both operate by the same sort of access-brokering journalistic standards though.</p>
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		<title>By: onecrappyusername</title>
		<link>http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/torture/politicos-mike-allen-defends-use-of-anonymous-bush-torture-memo-spin/comment-page-1/#comment-10543</link>
		<dc:creator>onecrappyusername</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:18:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/?p=5095#comment-10543</guid>
		<description>mr. allen probably thought he *couldn&#039;t* run the story without comment from bushco, based on how important he and his publication feels it is to get the reaction from the opposing sides in any political story.  That&#039;s as charitable an explanation for his motives as I can come up with.  I disagree with them as to the relative importance, but that&#039;s another issue.  

The problem is that his source used that sense of importance as leverage to be able to make his remarks anonymously - which allows him to make shit up without scrutiny, and completely outweighs whatever benefit there was to having both sides represented.  mr. allen was used, his article subverted into an opinion piece.  The only remaining question was whether he realizes it or not.  I have thoughts on that, one certainly thinks he could have found someone else to comment on the record, but I&#039;ve spent too much work time already :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mr. allen probably thought he *couldn&#8217;t* run the story without comment from bushco, based on how important he and his publication feels it is to get the reaction from the opposing sides in any political story.  That&#8217;s as charitable an explanation for his motives as I can come up with.  I disagree with them as to the relative importance, but that&#8217;s another issue.  </p>
<p>The problem is that his source used that sense of importance as leverage to be able to make his remarks anonymously &#8211; which allows him to make <acronym title="shit">****</acronym> up without scrutiny, and completely outweighs whatever benefit there was to having both sides represented.  mr. allen was used, his article subverted into an opinion piece.  The only remaining question was whether he realizes it or not.  I have thoughts on that, one certainly thinks he could have found someone else to comment on the record, but I&#8217;ve spent too much work time already <img src='http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/torture/politicos-mike-allen-defends-use-of-anonymous-bush-torture-memo-spin/comment-page-1/#comment-10540</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:09:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/?p=5095#comment-10540</guid>
		<description>As I just wrote over at my blog, Allen&#039;s response is simply a dodge:

Sorry, Mike, but you can&#039;t get off by blaming readers for giving your post only a cursory glance. The placement of the quote in the context of the post is not the issue. The issue is granting anonymity to a Bush official in these circumstances. 

He says it&#039;s better to grant anonymity than not to have any take from the Bush team at all, but that&#039;s a false choice.

Allen could have simply moved on and found someone else to give the Bush administration&#039;s take. There are plenty of former Bush administration officials getting their two cents in today. The real issue for Allen most likely was: Will another Bush official give me a quote this juicy? And so he granted the anonymity on that basis, because he&#039;s interested in driving traffic to his site. Pretty much par for the course for Allen, who comes from the horse-trading journalistic culture of Newsweek.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I just wrote over at my blog, Allen&#8217;s response is simply a dodge:</p>
<p>Sorry, Mike, but you can&#8217;t get off by blaming readers for giving your post only a cursory glance. The placement of the quote in the context of the post is not the issue. The issue is granting anonymity to a Bush official in these circumstances. </p>
<p>He says it&#8217;s better to grant anonymity than not to have any take from the Bush team at all, but that&#8217;s a false choice.</p>
<p>Allen could have simply moved on and found someone else to give the Bush administration&#8217;s take. There are plenty of former Bush administration officials getting their two cents in today. The real issue for Allen most likely was: Will another Bush official give me a quote this juicy? And so he granted the anonymity on that basis, because he&#8217;s interested in driving traffic to his site. Pretty much par for the course for Allen, who comes from the horse-trading journalistic culture of Newsweek.</p>
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		<title>By: along</title>
		<link>http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/torture/politicos-mike-allen-defends-use-of-anonymous-bush-torture-memo-spin/comment-page-1/#comment-10535</link>
		<dc:creator>along</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:52:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/?p=5095#comment-10535</guid>
		<description>&quot;On background&quot;? Anyone please correct me here, but isn&#039;t &quot;on background&quot; almost universally taken to mean that you can report the gist of the information the person is giving you, and you can characterize that person in general terms (or even more specific terms, such as &quot;A former top official in the administration of President George W. Bush&quot;), but that you CANNOT use direct quotes? And that&#039;s not to protect the source, that&#039;s to protect your own journalistic credibility. Allen is way out of bounds here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;On background&#8221;? Anyone please correct me here, but isn&#8217;t &#8220;on background&#8221; almost universally taken to mean that you can report the gist of the information the person is giving you, and you can characterize that person in general terms (or even more specific terms, such as &#8220;A former top official in the administration of President George W. Bush&#8221;), but that you CANNOT use direct quotes? And that&#8217;s not to protect the source, that&#8217;s to protect your own journalistic credibility. Allen is way out of bounds here.</p>
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		<title>By: P.D.</title>
		<link>http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/torture/politicos-mike-allen-defends-use-of-anonymous-bush-torture-memo-spin/comment-page-1/#comment-10532</link>
		<dc:creator>P.D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:40:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/?p=5095#comment-10532</guid>
		<description>Unreal, this is the type of &#039;Journalism&#039; that got us in the Iraq War. I haven&#039;t bothered with the Politico for a long time, and now I know why. Mike Allen is a coward. If he will print a article like this, he better show his sources.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unreal, this is the type of &#8216;Journalism&#8217; that got us in the Iraq War. I haven&#8217;t bothered with the Politico for a long time, and now I know why. Mike Allen is a coward. If he will print a article like this, he better show his sources.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard H. Davis</title>
		<link>http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/torture/politicos-mike-allen-defends-use-of-anonymous-bush-torture-memo-spin/comment-page-1/#comment-10531</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard H. Davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:39:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/?p=5095#comment-10531</guid>
		<description>How about “Bush officials wouldn’t comment on the record on the memo’s revelations.”</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How about “Bush officials wouldn’t comment on the record on the memo’s revelations.”</p>
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		<title>By: Trakker</title>
		<link>http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/torture/politicos-mike-allen-defends-use-of-anonymous-bush-torture-memo-spin/comment-page-1/#comment-10525</link>
		<dc:creator>Trakker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:21:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/?p=5095#comment-10525</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve come to the conclusion that some reporters make stuff up and attribute it to anonymous officials.  Why not?  Who will can prove them wrong? Who really questions them (other than the blogosphere)?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve come to the conclusion that some reporters make stuff up and attribute it to anonymous officials.  Why not?  Who will can prove them wrong? Who really questions them (other than the blogosphere)?</p>
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