Levin: CIA Torture Documents Cheney Wants Don’t Prove Squat
There’s some important news about Dick Cheney and torture in a speech that Senator Carl Levin gave before the Foreign Policy Association this week.
Specifically: Levin confirmed that he’d seen the classified CIA documents that Cheney has been asking the CIA to declassify and release — and said that they don’t prove Cheney’s claim that torture worked by any stretch.
Levin’s comments are highly newsworthy because they give us the most detailed picture yet of what’s in the documents Cheney wants. You can watch Levin’s speech right here at TPM. This is what Levin said about the documents:
Mr. Cheney has also claimed that the release of classified documents would prove his view that the techniques worked. But those classified documents say nothing about numbers of lives saved, nor do the documents connect acquisition of valuable intelligence to the use of the abusive techniques. I hope that the documents are declassified so that people can judge for themselves what is fact and what is fiction.
If this is true, it’s big. A Senator who has seen the documents Cheney claims will prove that torture saved lives says that those docs contain absolutely nothing about whether the torture techniques were actually responsible for yielding any valuable intelligence.
Networks such as MSNBC have given literally hours of airtime to Cheney and his daughter Liz to claim endlessly that these docs will prove Cheney’s torture assertions. These claims have gone almost entirely unchallenged, due to the classified nature of the documents. You’d think that a contrary claim from a well-respected Senator who has also seen the docs would merit a few passing mentions, too.
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Design question.
For some reason all of your posts are now underlined except the most recent on. This began a few days ago and has happen on several different computers. It makes the older posts harder to read. Is there a reason for this? can I turn it off.
Thanks and cheers
Greg
.
Yesterday before Carlos Watson had Liz Cheney on he asked on twitter for questions to ask her. I literally sent about 12 good questions and I think out of all of them he used one, the one where he establishes that she hasn’t actually seen the documents, but even that was kind of soft balled to her. I just think they are afraid to press her and instead allow her to shape public opinion like an attack ad that her dad doesn’t have to pay for. Very very frustrating.
Dennis, you seem to be the only person with the underlining problem. I’ve never had that problem – I agree it’s weird; especially since you seem to be the only one.
SG — I think MSNBC will pick up on this. Stay tuned…
…so no underlining problems for most of you anymore?
What’s with the GOP and twitter? They seem to own it now – it’s the one thing they have learned how to do and they’re posting important stuff on Twitter, for god’s sake.
They can have it by the way – I’ve never seen such a waste of time. Blogger who post all day and even comment on other blogs are twittering. What is there left to say?
Carl Levin…I’ll tell you, my friends, this is nothing but reverse dishonesty.
Feingold said the same thing a few weeks ago. P.S. I also have the underlining problem.
I guess I misspoke when I said no one else had the underlining problem.
Weird problem to say the least.
underlining on IE but not on Firefox
Yes still underlining problem
Nice one, Bernie.
No underlining problem in Firefox. Yes underlining problem in IE v. 7.
As for the topic of the post, clearly Levin saying this does not register because he is a Dem and obviously not serious. Whereas the deeply unpopular ex-Vice President’s daughter, who has no actual first hand knowledge of the matter, is a repuglican and obviously deeply serious.
Should be obvious by now.
If a republican says it, it must be true. If a democrat says it, it’s not only false but treasonous. If a republican does it, it’s legal. If a democrat does it, it’s immoral and illegal. Let’s spin this – Carl Levin purportedly read the same documents that Cheney claims support the contention that torture works. Carl Levin wears glasses, which indicates he has vision issues. Because of Levin’s vision issues, we cannot substantiate Levin’s claim of having read those documents. Thus, Dick Cheney wins.
I’m running Firefox – no underlines. If I switch to Safari, still no underlines.
I have the underlining on IE 7, which is what I’ve got to work with. Reading has been literally painful.
And Halperin says this is obviously good news for John McCain.
Bush said the same thing in his speech last night – torture (although I don’t call it that because I was told it was all legal) saved lives. This is now so much part of the general mindset something like Levin’s statement needs very wide publicity. Will it get it? No. I have underlined comments, but not posts using IE.
When the Bush admin was in, they told us, ‘to say ANYTHING NEGATIVE about the administration was TREASON”!
What happened? They can’t shut their pie holes they’re so negative!
Gee, seems hypocritical to me. BTW
Alito said the same thing as Sotomayer,a nd I didn’t hear any trolls upset about that!
R= Rush
N = Newt
C = Cheney
The MSM has not been sucessfully weaned from the right wingtit.
They still salivate and open their mouths wide to be fed the pap of stupidity and hate.
Anyone who believes Cheney is an idiot. Cheney is all about Cheney and nothing else. He does not care one whit about anything other than his own icome and his reputation.
He will be judged along with Bush as worst man in office.
All the time it was illegal to do business with Iraq and Iran Cheney did business with them by setting up offshore subsidiaries. America’s laws mean nothing at all to him.
Nothing means much to Cheney other than what Cheney wants. In any other country he’d have been indicted, tried and executed by now as a traitor.
Kal Palnicki | May 29th, 2009 at 10:16 am : “Nothing means much to Cheney other than what Cheney wants. In any other country he’d have been indicted, tried and executed by now as a traitor.”
Nah, he would have committed suicide. Maybe we can send him to K2 for a nice long jump?
Then you cowardly libs ,,,, bring out the docs
Nothing justifies torture.
Torture is unjustifiable.
Torture degrades the perpetrator even more profoundly than it degrades the victim.
Torture is unjustifiable.
Nothing justifies torture.
I sure wouldn’t listen to anytjhing his lying as daughter says either. She is one twisted self loathing gay
The MSM shames itself by taking a matter which should be tried in court and pushes it vigorously like like it’s on the Cheney defense team. The “cross examination” doesn’t really exist. So why does Corporate give so much air time to allow Adolf Cheney to taint the jury pool? It’s so obvious the media is in bed with fascism.
Why does Corporate hate American Justice and the Constitution so much? Why is the MSM in the totalitarian’s pocket, genuflecting at every opportunity before a mass murderer, subverter, thief, and torturer?
It really does look like the MSM is begging for a new Fairness Doctrine that cannot be undermined by Corporate fascists.
http://www.light-to-dark.com/brewster_jennings.html
It’s called treason, fellow Americans. Outing an American agent and her front company-Brewster Jennings-to facilitate the PNAC conspiracy is maximum anti-Americanism. There is no controversy.
# jackfish | May 29th, 2009 at 10:31 am
Then you cowardly libs ,,,, bring out the docs
Classy. Name-calling is the true hallmark of honesty. There is not one shred of evidence that torture produces anything of value or people would spill their guts after reading your posts.
This is terrific. But why can’t the Dems get this kind of counterattacking rebuttal out sooner? It would have been much more effective to see and hear this a day or two after Cheney’s repugnant speech, rather than a week later.
Note to Ham: Liz Cheney is not gay – Mary Cheney is. Liz is the equivalent of white sliced bread – married with kids, no substance, being the dutiful daughter. She’s definitely daddy’s little girl . . .
i’ve also got the underlining problem…
(XP, SP3, IE
Send Bush and Cheney up the same stairs as did Sadaam on his walk to oblivion
Not newsworthy at all until the documents are released. This is more he said/he said… and won’t end until the documents are released.
I see underlining….
“You’d think that a contrary claim from a well-respected Senator who has also seen the docs would merit a few passing mentions, too.”
Well, Greg, a former President just made some statements that would appear to indicate that he thinks EITs saved lives – I haven’t seen any mentions of this on your blog.
You’d think a contrary claim from a former President would merit a few passing mentions, wouldn’t you?
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/05/28/bush-the-information-we-got-saved-lives/
Torture is torture. By taking these people away from their homes and families and punishing them under a cruel regimine of questioning against their will is entirely torture. In the end it dosnt matter if we saved lives, by violating our constituation we are losing the reasons that make our country great.
Starting with the “Posted by Greg Sargent” statement, everything that’s not a hyperlink, including all the comments in the comment section, has the CSS property {text-decoration: underline;} applied in IE6, IE7, IE8 and Opera. In Opera the underline also appears on the hyperlink statements in non-hover mode. Firefox and Safari appear to be okay.
This is true on the individual blog entry pages as well as the blog home page. Someone didn’t do cross-browser checking as they should have.
Release the hounds! (I mean the docs!)
One more good reason to get all of this out in the open.
Bush is lying like a rug (as always) I remember him saying something about “Mission Accomplished” and he even said we DID find WMD’s.
Bush (like prez Cheney) has no credibility.
“The people I distrust most are those who want to improve our lives but have only one course of action.”
Frank Herbert (1920 – 1986)
our meduia is a sham, the only present the republican view at a time when 80% of the nation know the republican view is ddeply flawed and dangerous to intelligent thought.
this only confirms, once again if we needed it, a full disclosure is critical. ex-president bush is now also defending himself and explaining how necessary and important and right torture was in keeping us safe; of course, it could be argued bush only knew what he was told by those with their own agenda. bush, never one for curiosity or his own research, took what was told to him as fact.
The question should not be whether the torture saved lives or not. The challenge to Cheney’s justification for torture should be that it doesn’t matter if the torture saved lives. Assume, for the sake of argument, that Cheney was able to offer conclusive proof that a prisoner who was subjected to torture provided information that led to the prevention of another 911 attack. Would this justify the use of torture? Cheney obviously argues yes, and many Americans would find his argument compelling. However, there are two logical reasons his argument is faulty. First, there is no reason to believe that more traditional and historically reliable methods of interrogation would not have achieved the same results. Second, if it is accepted that we should use whatever means we can to extract information about an iminent attack on this country, would we not be equally justified in lining up the prisoner’s innocent children and decapitating them one by one until he talks? The “ends justifies the means” argument is simply not a reasonable one. If we buy into it by trying to counter Cheney’s claims, then we are allowing him to control the dialog.
“And I’d like to interject a note of balance here. There are times when we all get in high dudgeon. We ought to be reasonable about this. I think there are probably very few people in this room or in America who would say that torture should never, ever be used, particularly if thousands of lives are at stake. Take the hypothetical: If we knew that there was a nuclear bomb hidden in an American city and we believed that some kind of torture, fairly severe maybe, would give us a chance of finding that bomb before it went off, my guess is most Americans and most senators, maybe all, would say, ‘Do what you have to do.’ So it’s easy to sit back in the armchair and say that torture can never be used. But when you’re in the foxhole, it’s a very different deal.”
*
Senator Charles Schumer – Democrat
Stupid rethugs cryin to release the memo’s and now Levin is going to verify that 1, the repubes did torture, 2 The memo’s that the Dick wanted released won’t support the Dick head. Now you got little curious george out there speaking now. I’m looking forward to the day those two idiots go to jail. And what a sad *** **** to use Senator Schumer as an id. he would never condone torture even with the ticking bomb scenario. Sorry you lame *** loser.
I see the underlined text as well. Very annoying.
Newest comments should appear at top, not bottom.
Lets not forget it was Cheney that claimed other classified documents told him where the WMD’s where. That proved to be a lie, and now he is making the same claim about documents he knows cannot be released. Are we really supposed to beleive that these documents that “prove” the argument can be released but Cheney never got around to it himself? Why didn’t he release these claimed documents himself?
“The ends justify the means” was the exact same justification for flying an airplane full of people into a building full of people. They where wrong on 9/11 and it was wrong here too!
Alert: Bush/Cheney obtained information that Osama Bin Laden was determined to strike within the United States and that Al Quida might try to fly airplanes into buildings. This proves our methods worked. Oh? This information was offered voluntarily? Well at least those with the responsibility to protect America chose to act on it. Oh…, really?
If the documents `show that Cheney was lying (surprise) then I hope they will be released shortly. It is time to get these non-elected officials off our country’s back. They are leaches sucking our national pride. Much like South Africa, we need reconciliation hearings to bring closure to this ugly chapter in our history. On another note, it is “Underlying”, not “Underlining”. Sorry to be a spelling nut.
Yes! The ends NEVER, EVER justify the means. The United States is supposed to be different. We prosecuted people who tortured human beings following WWII, but NOW it is okay for us to do it, when the ends justify it? NO!
People need to realize that Jack Bauer and the show “24″ are fictional. No ticking time bomb situation ever comes up! And it is well known that torture does not actually work. I bet 99% of the good intel interrogations produced after 911 was based on normal interrogation methods that are known to work.
Cheney and pals were so desperate to find a connection beteen Iraq and Al Qaeda (and no connection existed and Cheney KNEW this) that they had al Libi tortured many times. Al Libi finally said there was a connection just to get the torture to stop, and that is all.
The CIA told the Bush crowd this “evidence” was not reliable, but it was used to justify invading a sovereign nation, Iraq, anyway. Is it any wonder the world despises the U.S. now? They can spell hypocrite.
hey all-thanks for the info re the weird underlining problem. i do think it’s a web browser issue, and have alerted the techie folks. our tech lead is out today, so it might not be fixed until Monday. but appreciate all the detail on where/how problem works.
Sorry for the delay and problems.
Rachel
Editor, WhoRunsGov.com
Rachel, those <ins> elements are causing the underlining problem. Get rid of those and it will be fixed.
PS-
Cheney sucks
…or add the following to http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/wp-content/themes/washington-post/style.css
ins {text-decoration:none}
Cheney and Liz has been on the circuit trying to mustard up interest in his book deal. If he get the deal please note it will be a big flop; I will never ever buy a repurg book for any reason. Never assist the repurg income by buying anything they write, sell or produce in any manner. Cheney family is made up of liars and money hounds.
Can I change the subject just a wee bit? Just caught this in my wanderings…
“This confrontation is willed by God, who wants to use this conflict to erase his people’s enemies before a New Age begins,” Bush said to Chirac, according to Thomas Romer, a University of Lausanne theology professor who was later approached by French officials anxious to understand the biblical reference. Romer first revealed his account in a 2007 article for the university review, Allez savoir, which passed largely unnoticed.
Chirac, in a new book by French journalist Jean-Claude Maurice, is quoted as confirming the surreal conversation, saying he was stupefied by Bush’s reference to biblical prophecy and “wondered how someone could be so superficial and fanatical in their beliefs.”
————————————————————-
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/642352
I didn’t see the following in the comments. It has alrerady been confirmed that the Cheney documents are part of an on-going litigation and are subject to a BUSH EXECUTIVE ORDER that prohibits their release until the litigation is over. It is believed that Cheney knew this and is playing us all.
I’m underlined too.
Japanese soldiers used enhanced interogation.
It worked.
They were executed by Americans for war crimes.
@Just a Tim: Well then, if the al qaeda terrorists are able to defeat America in war then they will be welcome to try the CIA interrogators of KSM for war crimes.
It is time that Attorney General Holded, President Obama and Congress call Cheney’s bluff on torture.
Hold should appoint a Special Prosecutor.
Congress should start a Commission to get at the Truth.
Obama should support Enforcing US Federal Torture Laws.
SIGN THE PETITION To Prosecute Them For Torture
AT ANGRYVOTERS dot ORG
http://ANGRYVOTERS.ORG
Over 250,000 have signed
Join them and call yourself a Patriot
.
To settle this, all Obama needs to do is declassify the documents in question…and let us all decide for ourselves. Obama is having a pretty easy time reversing Bush Exec Orders so far, so getting to who’s telling the truth is actually stupidly simple.
Brian M–Thanks for that link to the Star article (Toronto Star, not the tabloid). It’s pretty provocative if Bush told Chirac God was pushing war.
The last part of the article is right on the money: “But for many, including officials from America’s Muslim communities, one need not go deep into biblical verse to be troubled.
.
‘Just the fact that Donald Rumsfeld and the Pentagon would overlay briefings to the president with biblical verses confirms eight years of suspicions,’ said Salam al-Marayati, of the Los Angeles-based Muslim Public Affairs Council.
.
‘What is so disturbing is that it is similar to the way Al Qaeda uses sacred text to support their ambitions. As a Muslim who loves America, who wants my children and my grandchildren to feel this is their home, it is the last thing we want to see in a president.’”
Let the Trails begin for the bush,cheney CRIME FAMILY, with the DEATH prnalty on the table and PUBLIC Execution (Iwant to sell popcorn at these Traitors hanging), these Crimminals are runni9ng scared AND the more the Right Wing Nuts talk the more I become convienced they are GUILTY, the RNC and GFOP should be declared ENEMIES of the STATE with their idea of Justice to include WATERBOARDING for these COWARDS.
Bush & Cheney are spinning for their lives. Last I looked Cheney had an approval rating of 11%. Why the Obama administration is not at least advocating a thorough drubbing of the facts & free reign to Holder for prosecution is beyond me. It’s the single biggest move he could make to communicate to the citizens of this Country & the world that America is back. Media is spiraling downward as a direct cause of their insistence on giving Republicans the microphone overwhelmingly when we just elected Democrats in to an overwhelming majority. Now they (the media) just look blatantly foolish.
I’ve read an article that puts together evidence to show that Cheney used torture to manufacture evidence for the war on terror. Funny how Obama doesn’t want to release the photos- I suppose he is concerned that the American people would be horrified and stand up against torture. His excuse of enraging the terrorists by releasing the photos is lies, because they already know- that is how Cheney stirred up these terrorists to get mad.
Here is the article: Dick Cheney – Tortured Evidence
Underlines in IE8. None in FF3
Robert is correct. Cheney used this torture to manufacture evidence linking Iraq to Al-Qaeda. Two other points I believe to be true. He dictated the memos from the Justice Department to approve torture. He dictated the “proof” from the CIA to support attacking IRAQ. He played Bush for a fool with the biblical references and now he is scared sh**less that if the complete truth comes out he will be in prison for a very long time.
Obama has held back on investigation and prosecutions for one reason. He wants to get his healthcare plan implemented immediately and feels that the distraction of prosecution theater, would derail the support he could receive from the pubby’s which basically serves as his ‘reward’ for looking the other way.
I also feel that democrat culpability in this issue has only been partially revealed via the Pelosi debacle. I f the full scop and nature of who knew what and when ever surfaces, it will and should become not the war of red and blue, but the war of right against wrong.
I thought Cheney’s daughter was Lez not Liz. What a dried-up old white guy; the face of the republican party!
Didn’t know about it. Very nice information. Submitted this post to Google News Reader.
Cheney is trash and has no standing to comment on national security.
_______________
SCANDAL! SCANDAL! SCANDAL!
EMERGENCY! EMERGENCY! EMERGENCY!
George W. Bush continuously criminally stalked Margie Schoedinger to the point that she could not get away from it, and she committed suicide in desperation to escape: he murdered her.
“In her suit, Margie Schoedinger states that George W. Bush committed sexual crimes against her, organized harassment and moral pressure on her, her family members and close relatives and friends. As Schoedinger said, she was strongly recommended to keep her mouth shut. . . . Furthermore, she alleges that George Bush ordered to show pressure on her to the point, when she commits suicide” (blog of drizzten).
“One of those ‘very leasts’ [was] George Bush’s personal complicity in the death (murder to be precise) of my friend Margie Schoedinger in September of 2003. Determining the exact whereabouts and contacts of [then] president-elect George Bush on September 21 thru 22, 2003, should be entirely lacking in difficulty” (Leola McConnell—Nevada Progressive Democratic Candidate for U.S. Senate in 2010).
Leola McConnell is correct: Bush applying pressure (continuously criminally stalking Margie Schoedinger) purposefully to force Schoedinger to commit suicide does in fact constitute murder where it culminated in her death.
BEWARE: If the president of the United States hates one—for whatever reasons—he can continuously criminally stalk one to the point that one cannot get away from it, and one ultimately commits suicide in desperation to escape. He can murder people in this way.
Bush is getting away with his murder of Schoedinger—with no sheriff, prosecutor, or court willing to uphold the rule of law.
Bush’s method of murdering Schoedinger cannot exist in a vacuum: he must have murdered other people in the same way.
Bush should confess, come out with the names of all of the people whom he murdered in the disgusting way he murdered Schoedinger, undergo execution, and accordingly find himself at the intersection where he would be free.
(There are thousands of copies of the information above on the Internet. It exists very extensively in all major search engines. Please feel free to go to any major search engine, type “George W. Bush continuously criminally stalked Margie Schoedinger to the point that she could not get away from it, and she committed suicide in desperation to escape: he murdered her,” hit “Enter,” and find innumerable results.)
_______________
Andrew Wang
(a.k.a. “THE DISSEMINATING MACHINE”)
B.S., Summa *** Laude, 1996
Messiah College, Grantham, PA
Lower Merion High School, Ardmore, PA, 1993
I think the CIA should be allowed to do whatever works to break down the terrorists who want to attack America!