Gallup: Majority Thinks Torture Justified, But Wants Probe Anyway!
That Gallup poll we’ve been waiting for has just been released, and it finds a slim majority favor a probe into Bush-era torture (click to enlarge):
So 51% favor a government investigation of the use of “harsh interrogation techniques,” and only 42% oppose one.
What’s particularly interesting here, though, is that a solid majority of 55% also finds that the use of such techniques was justified, versus only 36% who say it wasn’t — and yet a slim majority still favors a probe. That suggests, I think, that voters are capable of wanting a thorough airing of precisely what happened and when, even if they don’t necessarily oppose the use of torture.
In other words, these numbers suggest that the electorate doesn’t generally think a government probe would necessarily amount to retribution or revenge, as so many pundits keep saying, and merely view it as a necessary accounting of what actually happened. Imagine that!
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“Tthe electorate doesn’t generally think a government probe would necessarily amount to retribution or revenge . . . Imagine that!”
Imagine Greg being so naive as to believe these probes (for there will be several) won’t devolve into a partisan witchhunt!
Greg
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Prediction, MSM pundits will focus on the 42 percent who oppose investigations as proof that “it will divide the country”
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sbj doesn’t believe in America
I find this poll truly disconcerting. I wonder if in any other country where torture is employed by its government, in violation of its laws, the majority of the citizenry would supports its use?
China? Egypt? Iran? Syria?
You think any of those countries would vote for more torture power for their rulers?
What’s wrong with us?
Unabogie
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Its a “24′ nation that we live in. I happen to LOVE watching 24 but I realize that there will never be a time in our nation where every single hour on the hour there will be a terrorist attack thwarted or carried out. But many people in our country actually believe that 24 is realistic. And it doesn’t help when you have clowns on the right reinforcing that sentiment.
SGWhite,
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Also, Mork is not really from Ork?
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Seriously, this is bad. This is one reason I think prosecutions are a non-starter.
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The public actually likes torturing people.
More fuel to the fire against torture.
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/25/AR2009042503122_pf.html
Unabogie
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I am serious about 24. I have seen more references to that show since this issue has come up than you would believe, many times from sitting Republicans in Congress. They keep referring to a “ticking time bomb” scenario when the truth is that rarely if ever is the situation. Thats why most of these polls about whether people think we should ever torture are so skewed, because most of the people who say we should are referring to only that non existent ticking time bomb scenario.
SG and Unabogie–I was just about to post that exact comment on 24–that it tells us torture works and keeps the world from ending. Of course people believe in it. And the CIA under Bush Cheney specifically didn’t do anything to contradict that view, not even attempting to evaluate effectiveness. Bernie provided this useful link in the weekend thread: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-interrogate26-2009apr26,0,5771981.story
By the way, when you get in the weeds 80% of Republicans say torture was justified. 54% of Dems say it wasn’t and Independents are split down the middle. Its unfortunate that the debate is now over effectiveness but I believe now its going to take conclusive evidence repeated over and over that torture didn’t help stop any attacks nor keep us safe before the numbers shift considerably toward investigations.
SG,
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I was being snarky. Sorry. But my point is more that the public ought to be able to tell the difference between reality and make believe.
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It’s truly depressing that this poll is not overwhelmingly against torture. This says to me that it will happen again, only next time out in the open, with our blessing.
Abstract ideas – all pro-torture respondents need to be given the opportunity to be tortured to see if they themselves would change their abstract ideas about what torture is and why the tortured would be so willing to give up any unreliable information just to make the pain stop. Then and only then would they be able to judge for themselves the merits of torture! -Kevo
kevo
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Honestly, I disagree. I know that I might lose people on this one but I believe part of the reason why some Americans think we were justified to torture KSM and Zubaydah was because they were swarthy Arab Muslim “others”. A lot of these people don’t see arab/muslim terrorists as human and as such they wouldn’t equate getting waterboarded themselves with subhuman terrorists getting waterboarded. As crazy as it sounds I honestly believe that if we had waterboarded Russians for information there would be a deafening call for justice. But listen carefully when pro torturists talk. They always describe detainees in ways that dehumanize them and paint them pretty much as savages. Now obviously the terrorists have done some pretty depraved things, however they are still human beings and in my opinion no worse than the Nazi soldiers who killed millions of Jews.
From Tinker, Tailor…
The simpler analysis: Americans may not agree with laws [against torture], but are concerned about laws being broken.
Just goes to show that we are acquiring all the qualifcations to be a banana republic.
Hi All~
The majority of American’s view this entire torture debate as more hypocrisy from the GOP. American’s may be split on whether torture is justified, but the reason the majority want a probe is because they are just starting to get a glimpse of how corrupt the Bush Administration was and they want to see, for themselves, just how bad it really was. But don’t worry, there will be plenty of Republican leaders coming out on this issue, you are already starting to see past aides and operatives coming out saying they were against it, but the Bush Administration went ahead anyway. Not to mention the Armed Forces memos that were released stating, at the time, that what the Bush Administration was putting together was a torture program and the Armed Forces did not endorse the techniques. Once the dust on this volumenous issue settles, the Bush Administration legacy will not improved, in fact, quite the contrary. And some Republican’s can try to frame the debate all they want with their spin, but their own words on the issue are well documented (see Newt Gingrich’s statement from 1997 at the end of this post). We are a Nation of laws, and although many of us hold contempt for or loathe terrorist, most all of us agree that being a Nation of laws is imperative to this great Country. Make no mistake, I may not lose much sleep personally over a known terrorist being tortured, however if a United States soldier was captured and waterboarded, I would consider that torture, and therefore as a person who respects the rule of law, I cannot approve of my government torturing others because I think it is justified. If I could, then what makes me different than the terrorist? Because, I can guarantee you that terrorists think they are justified in carrying out attacks on this Nation, and many other Nations around the world.
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: OCTOBER 30, 1997
SPEAKER’S STATEMENT ON VISIT OF PRESIDENT JIANG
Washington, D.C. — House Speaker Newt Gingrich released the following statement today following his meeting with Chinese President Jiang Zemin.
“As I said in China this spring, there is no place for abuse in what must be considered the family of man. There is no place for torture and arbitrary detention. There is no place for forced confessions. There is no place for intolerance of dissent.” “While we walked through the Rotunda. I explained to President Jiang how the roots of American rule of law go back more than 700 years, to the signing of the Magna Carta. The foundation of American values, therefore, is not a passing priority or a temporary trend.
JennD: But he was lecturing the lesser beings on our planet. They torture. Our self-satisfaction knows no bounds. Have you read State’s Annual Report on Human Rights Abuses. How we can put that out with a straight face amazes me. This year Robert Mugabe is going to use the report for toilet paper. We are all Zimbabwans now.
Prediction, MSM pundits will focus on the 42 percent who oppose investigations as proof that “it will divide the country”.
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Prediction: MSM pundits will focus on the “Majority thinks torture justified” part and ignore everything else.
Kids, waterboarding is not torture. What is torture is the blatant and deliberate ignorance espoused by those who think waterboarding is.
Waterboarding has been part of the SERE training by the military for many years. Would you lock up all the commanders who condone waterboarding during special forces training?
Captain America
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We have not EVER waterboarded a SERE trainee 183 times and SERE training is over in 2 weeks not months. Besides that SERE training is precisely to get special forces troops aquainted with TORTURE so they wouldn’t give false confessions. If you looked any more stupid you would be a real live cartoon.
CPT America
You do know what SERE stands for, right? RESISTANCE. Specifically, resistance to TORTURE.
Plus what SG said.
“What’s wrong with us?”
I dunno but I’m not surprised. I was a criminal defense lawyer and I can tell you that most Americans I have run into in the course of that career were absolutely brutal when it came to anyone charged with a crime. Most Americans are very happy to see someone “fry” for whatever the hell.
If a whistle blower or a heretofore hidden document reveals that someone was killed while being tortured, or that a child was tortured, we might see prosecutions. Nothing else will move the needle.
I think it’s odd to conduct a poll like this… The poll seems to gauging latent and/or manifest fear; people fear another 9/11 and think that we should do everything we can to avoid it, even if we have to torture. Unfortunately, it seems that fear is overwhelming how people perceive the rule of law. Put another way, the rule of law has been subjugated by the fear of a terrorist attack. Thus, it seems irresponsible and misguided to conduct an opinion poll on a legal matter that is highly susceptible to emotional interference. This isn’t an a question of justification of torture, though that seems to be how the public at large sees it — the ends justifies the means. But, isn’t that sentiment largely, if not wholly, incompatible with the rule of law, vis-a-vis torture? If we, as a nation and a world, have decided that torture is illegal, what does justification matter? And, if justification is acceptable in this instance, when does justification for law-breaking become unacceptable? It’s a slippery slope.
Majority thinks torture is justified? I wasn’t polled. Nobody I know was polled. I haven’t seen any polls regarding this. I certainly don’t think it’s justified. The U.S.A. is *supposed* to be above bullying.
How annoying.
sgwhitefla, our views are not mutually exclusive – people who advocate waterboarding should at least experience what they claim to know. About your observation, Edward Said’s work, Orientalism, provides excellent support for your “otherness” meme. As for the Captain America thread post, he/she doesn’t even know what he/she is saying, let alone what he/she is thinking. A training program to resist torture is a far cry from torturing for faulty information! -Kevo
You said:
“We have not EVER waterboarded a SERE trainee 183 times and SERE training is over in 2 weeks not months.”
So, in other words, special forces personnel are different than terrorists who masterminded the killing of 3,000 innocent lives?…agreed!
Imagine, even if one was to follow your logic and claims, that over the course of “183 times” none of the 3 renowned terrorists died and are still breathing, talking, eating, etc..
Doesn’t that take the starch out of your argument?
Captain America, time to climb back into your comic book.
AllButCertain | April 27th, 2009 at 05:13 pm = typical response from a progressive with no response.
captain “america” ~
Ummmm get your facts straight. Waterboarding is torture under the Geneva Conventions, which the United States claims to espouse to. In addition, in John McCain’s opinion waterboarding is torture, and I think we can all agree he is a reliable source of information regarding torture. Lastly, the United States prosecuted the Japanese after World War II for waterboarding our soldiers and civilians they captured during the war. I know that Republicans have become so use to the hypocrisy of the “do as I say, not as I do” argument that they find it hard to keep facts straight, much less realize that they are no longer able to “spin” the majority of the American people into “thinking” they way they do…good luck growing the Republican “tent” over the next 8,12,16 years – “Republicans – the Party of No, No, No; unless it’s torture, then Yes!”
Captain America
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It was YOUR DUMB A$$ that said we did the same thing to our troops. Now get on out of here clown, the circus ain’t in town yet.
Captain America: you cape is not going to help us. Try and get a stint on 24 where you can allow your imagination all kinds of freedom. On the other hand I am sure Keith Olbermann will give you somem oney to be waternboarded. Contact him and offer to do so. We will then have a pretty good idea of your threshold.
Jenn D–
Sorry, al Qaeda is not a nation state and is not a signatory of the GC.
More, McCain broke under waterboarding as he readily admits and gave the VC the information they sought.
The Japanese were prosecuted for such matters as removing finger nails with bamboo shoots under finger nails and a form of water torture entirely dissimilar to what is applied at SERE training and with the 3 renowned terrorists.
You make claims you are strangely unable to verify, but that is not surprising. Unlike yourself, I do not abide with what McCain says irrespective of whether or not I agree with him at a given time.
Funny, none of you are willing to punish the commanders who condone waterboarding of our special forces personnel during SERE training–and have for for decades–but are more than willing to condemn political figures (who disagree with your ideology).
As for Republicans versus whatever, I just did a Google search and found verbatims from multiple sites that you have used in an attempt to wage a cogent argument.
Don’t you folks have anything original to think and say?
Have any of you volunteered to host in your homes the Chinese terrorists who will be coming to the US, freed from that dreaded Guantánamo Bay Detention Camp?
There’s two back at you as to your hypocrisy.
sgwhiteinfla | April 27th, 2009 at 05:24 pm
Now, that a fount of intellect and tact. If you can’t provide an substance you spit venom. Nice.
Simon J | April 27th, 2009 at 05:38 pm
Sorry, but I’m not a terrorist nor have I killed anyone, nor do I pose an imminent terrorist danger to anyone. This obviously separates me from those you choose to defend who have.
Keith Olbermann – is he still on television? What’s he up to now, a hundred viewers?
Captain America – I was serious, but it’s your loss. Betsy Ross was waiting for you.
Is there a cover-up angle that can be investigated here? I think the scapegoating of the Abu Ghraib guards is reprehensible. If Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush gave them this playbook and thought it was within our rights, they should have said so, instead of feigning shock and horror and calling their goons a few bad apples, then sending them to prison for following orders.
I’m reading the comments from the bottom up. Captain America, are you making the case FOR torture? Or non-torture, whatever you’re calling it? Because I don’t really give a FF if AQ is or isn’t a signatory to the GCs. We are. But I like your Stalinist solution to Chinese terrorists. We’re rounded them up, we’re shipping them off to the gulag, and we’re throwing away the key.
And is SERE supposed to be a rationalization for us breaking the law? You sound like a guy who owns a Porsche who drives it dangerously fast because that’s what it’s built to do.
Sen. Kennedy offered an amendment in 2006 to stop waterboarding. It was voted down.
Ms. Hussein: Let’s be clear. Waterboarding is not torture. Thus is the point of my now numerous comments. Apparently, neither did Madam Speaker Pelosi nor Sen. Rockefeller, or (as aforementioned) nor did Congress in 2006.
The rest of your comments are, unfortunately, incoherent.
51%, huh? The GOP’s movers and shakers would call that a mandate. So let’s get it done, by popular demand.
Note Gallup’s great headline towards the bottom of their poll: “Harsh terrorism techniques used on terrorism suspects.” So the US is using terrorism techniques on terrorism suspects??? If an organization can’t double check what its polls say before it releases them, then good riddance, the poll sucks.
So if this poll is accurate, then most people are in favor of harsh techniques (and obviously must not believe these qualify as torture). Then what the hell do we need investigations into these techniques for if there was nothing you felt was wrong about them??
This poll has some serious flaws, and Gallup even admits as much by trying to “combine the questions.” In order to get a poll that would have really gotten the true reading of Americans’ viewpoint on this, they should have first asked: “Do you believe waterboarding is torture?” Then they should have asked the question about investigations into waterboarding (be specific on the technique used). Finally they should have asked if the specific technique was justified.
Gallup’s previous poll conducted only 3 months ago has 62% of Americans wanting an investigation into torture, but all of a sudden now 11% less people want an investigation into “harsh terrorism techniques?” Since there’s such a disparity from three months and there doesn’t appear to be anything national-security related that would have caused this opinion to change, perhaps Gallup could follow up by asking people if they considered the “harsh techniques” to be torture.
Horrible poll.
This will pass, we’ll move on to other things.
The fact is – on 9/11 people were leaping to their deaths from the twin towers, 3000+ innocent people died that day and it was witnessed, live – by millions. Americans wanted payback. Torture, although unpleasant & abhorrent to us… happened.
Do I want it to happen again? No.
This issue just doesn’t have traction – and the poll bears that out. We are at once apalled by it, yet we also approve of it.
Now – having read the comments on this blog, I am sure the name-callers will call me names too. Go ahead. I’m bigger than you.
have at it.
Jason