Former Bushies’ Claim That Obama Revealed Torture Secrets Is Largely Bogus
In the wake of Obama’s decision to release the torture memos, some folks connected to the administration of George W. Bush are claiming that he gave a big boost to terrorists by revealing secret torture techniques that Obama or other presidents might have wanted to use in the future.
The claim is largely bogus. While a few technical torture details in the memos were new, much about the techniques themselves had already been public. Indeed, what’s actually new about the memos is that they reveal in unprecedented detail the Bush administration’s effort to legally justify already-known techniques.
Case in point: Two top former Bush administration officials, CIA director Michael Hayden and Attorney General Michael Mukasey, took to the pages of the Wall Street Journal to blast Obama. They argued that public disclosure of the memos might “diminish the effectiveness of these techniques” and makes their suspension permanent, since you wouldn’t ever revive techniques that have “already been disclosed in detail.”
This, the two men warned, means tying the hands of Obama and future presidents in the war against terrorists.
But much about these techniques was already publicly known. For instance, the recently released report from the Red Cross contains detailed descriptions of techniques such as hurling suspects against a wall; face-slapping; confinement in a box; prolonged nudity; sleep deprivation; waterboarding; etc., etc. These were the techniques detailed in yesterday’s memos. This stuff is detailed in other places.
Yes, there were some new details in yesterday’s memos — the “insect” torture, for instance — and the precise descriptions of some of the techniques were new, and hence striking. But the broad outlines were already known, so the memos didn’t really give away a host of torture secrets.
One more time: What was actually revealed in yesterday’s memos was the nature of the Bush administration’s efforts to legalize and justify the “harsh interrogation techniques” that we mostly knew about already. And it’s not terribly difficult to imagine why some folks would want those legal efforts kept under wraps.
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Thanks for the proper redirect, Greg.
no prob, trevor. I worry that this point is getting lost in the discussion of the techniques themselves.
Well that’s certainly the salacious and horrifying bit, isn’t it? The parts that the media will want to chew over. I know I was hung up mostly on those details.
*
What I worry about w/r/t the WSJ piece is that the authors reintroduce the debate of whether those methods WORK (re: KSM’s “actionable” intelligence), not whether they’re wrong or, you know, simply unjustifiable on moral grounds or in the face of international treaties we’ve signed. Once torture opponents get into that muck, they’ve already lost the debate.
The ridiculous thing is the level of sophistication that Mukasey and Mullen try to ascribe to al queda and other terrorist groups. They don’t have SERE training like our special forces do and even our special forces trainers have limits. They know that if they go too far they will kill their recruits trying to train them to resist attempts to get them to talk. Terrorist have no such infrastructure. But bigger than that since last year both President Obama and John McCain talked about going to the Army Field manual guidelines so even if Al Queda WAS that smart its already been set in stone what we will and won’t do to our detainees going forward. Its a nonsensical op ed written by people trying to cover their a@@es for fear of prosecution. Again I refer you to the more than 70% of Americans who do not believe Dick Cheney when he said President Obama made us less safe. All they are doing is preaching to the 18 % who will never be enough to carry an election. But Rush Limbaugh has already touted the op ed and I imagine other “conservative” clowns will do the same. All they are doing is alienating the overwhelming majority of the country and pushing more people towards calling for investigations.
By the way, Rush Limbaugh made perhaps the most disgusting argument for torture today saying that basically since the Vietnamese “broke” John McCain that proves that torture works. Lost in his own brain evidently was the point that the Vietnamese were tortuting our POWs and thats precisely what we DON’T want which is why we signed onto the Conventions Against Torture so our soldiers would be treated humanely if they were ever captured. It will be intersting to see what kind of response veterans and POW groups have about Rush’s statements.
To the claim that sleep deprivation works and isn’t harmful TPM brings you the author of the material the Bushies used to make that assesment.
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http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/04/sleep_expert_surprised_and_saddened_to_find_resear.php
Strange to worry about tying a Presidents hands in regards to Torture. That is exactly what the Treaties are meant to do, preempt anyone from using Torture… doh…
There is a article in todays Guardian that says we should prosecute because the next time the Republican come to power they will no longer keep torture secret since it would have become a “cause” for them. Scary thought.
SG — yeah, that TPM thing is great. Will link it in roundup — so don’t go away, all. weekend open thread in the works.
Yeah. It got them the names of some football team’s starting lineup.
Yeah. But you forgot one thing. Those “torture” techniques, a lot of them enacted on reality TV shows, we’re secret before. So who gave the press the authority to leak them?
So have fun with that – and next time when you see a person slapped or thrown up against the wall in a reality tv show – you better be calling up the network immediately.
First, there’s knowing something and then there’s knowing something. The media, including the war or national security media, often gets it wrong. Thus, there was still some remaining uncertainty as to some of what the interrogators did. That uncertainty is now eliminated, which is to our detriment, unless you think that now that Obama is President we all live in threat-free, happy and joy-filled Sugar Plug Fairy world. (See, e.g., http://www.sugarplumfairy.nu/)
Second, Greg Sargent writes: “And it’s not terribly difficult to imagine why some folks would want those legal efforts kept under wraps.” Sargent is faking it, pretending a legal knowledge and sophistication he does not possess. Sargent does not say what’s wrong with the legal reasoning in those memos, because he can’t (but he can, no doubt, cite a couple outraged lefty legal commentators, and act as if that establishes the point.)
Brian
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Did you have a point? Any point at all? Since you are trying to call Greg out how about you try to explain in detail why releasing these memos would be a problem? I mean surely YOU know more than Greg since you ASSume Greg doesn’t know what he is talking about. Seriously, enlighten all of us with more than just your unfocused rantings.
Folks like Brian don’t seem to understand torture, which is odd considering how much they like it. One of the most effective aspects of torture is dread. Knowing they’re going to be waterboarded or kept awake for a week terrifies victims. Knowing it’s coming makes it more effective.
Releasing the torture memos doesn’t reduce the effectiveness of these “techniques” at all. However, it certainly exposes Mukasey, Hayden, Bush and the rest of the torturers as the vicious, stupid, evil war criminals that they are. That’s what bothers them.
The other great aspect of torture is that it gets victims to sign confessions whether they’re guilty or not. Zubaydah, for example, was/is a schizophrenic with a limited knowledge of “Al Qaeda” operations, but the CIA had him confessing to everything but Pearl Harbor. Why did they need Zubaydah to confess to 9/11 if he was guilty?
Isn’t the most revered object in one of the world’s major religions
a gruesome instrument of torture?
Perhaps someone should point out the obvious fact here:
They argued that public disclosure of the memos might “diminish the effectiveness of these techniques” and makes their suspension permanent, since you wouldn’t ever revive techniques that have “already been disclosed in detail.”
Isn’t it more likely that you wouldn’t revive techniques that have already been disclosed as WAR CRIMES. Sheesh.
Look:
Let’s just resolve this debate by waterboarding Hayden and Mukasey!
Now that I think of it, let’s add Brian to the waterboading list!
What a moron!
Uh huh. So now the Bushies admit to using torture? I thought Bush said “The United States does not torture.”
I agree that the people who committed torture during the Bush administration should be proscecuted. Obama deciding not to proscecute sets a bad precedent and sends the wrong message. Now when any American get tortured, Washington won’t be able to demand proscution of those torturers.
I agree with OneCrankyDem’s point: “There is a article in todays Guardian that says we should prosecute because the next time the Republican come to power they will no longer keep torture secret since it would have become a “cause” for them. Scary thought.”
I also agree with the many people who have argued that if America tortures, that creates justifications for its enemies to torture Americans.
When I came home I was diagnosed with PTSD, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, I was told that I am sick that I am not Right. Then I turned on the TV and I see Dick Durbin saying American soldiers are committing acts of torture at places like Abu Grab and Quantico because they had a Al Qaeda terrorist who saws civilians heads off with their hands tied behind their backs, Al Qaeda terrorist who place bombs on three year old children, Al Qaeda terrorist who came in our country when we were at peace and murdered over two
thousand American civilians, and they had these terrorist standing on a bar stool with a dunce cap on their head and that’s Torture! Why in the hell didn’t he say a damned thing
about Matt Maupin, Shoshana Johnson, Edgar Hernandez, James Riley, Patrick Miller, Joseph Hudson, Jacob N. Fritz, Jonathan B. Chism, Shawn P. Falter, Jonathon M. Millican,
or any of the other American soldiers who have been captured during this war! Private Kristian Menchaca of Houston and Private Thomas Tucker of Oregon were captured by terrorists in Iraq , hacked to death, their eyes gouged, their bodies defiled.
In fact it was the American soldiers who have died including all those who have been captured in this war (and I haven’t seen any enemy POW camps but I’ve seen a **** load
of bodies that have been tortured to death by these scum that Dick Durbin is defending!)
that give Dick Durbin the FREEDOM to call them terrorist for putting some Al-Qaida dirt bag on a bar stool with pajamas and a dunce cap!
I might have PTSD but I’m not the one who is sick it’s DICK DURBIN! Are you Really
an AMERICAN DICK?!?! Or just another Communist who hates AMERICA ?
And to top it all off the Communist muslim Traitor Hussein Obama is releasing more terrorist all the while saying nothing of my brothers in arms who have been tortured to death.
They died so that all the communist socialist pro baby murdering scum can continue to free load off of you and me on more of their worthless lazy bag of **** free hand out programs!
It’s strange how many websites the internet has about this topic! I don’t know if I will need to come back here, but it is awesome to know I stumbled upon the one that has a lot of practical info if this ever comes up for me again