CIA Documents Don’t Prove Pelosi Was Told Of Waterboarding
Last night, ABC News made a big splash by reporting that it had obtained intelligence documents proving that Nancy Pelosi was briefed about torture techniques in the fall of 2002, as Republicans have been charging. Folks on the right have been saying that the story proves Pelosi has been lying about what she knew about waterboarding and when.
But I have a copy of the documents, and a PDF of them is right here. They don’t prove the “lying about waterboarding” charge by any means.
The docs do show that according to the CIA, Pelosi was given a “description” of some of the enhanced interrogation techniques that had been used on Abu Zubaida.
But the documents are inconclusive on a key charge being made by Republicans — that she had been told of the use of waterboarding, one of the harshest and most controversial torture techniques.
Take a look at a screen capture of the relevant part of the document (click to enlarge):
“EIT” refers to “enhanced interrogation techniques.” As you can see, the document says that on September 4th, 2002, she was briefed on the “use of EITs on Abu Zubaydah” and a “description of the particular EITs that had been employed.” It’s the only time Pelosi was briefed.
This does not say whether she was told specifically about waterboarding. By contrast, elsewhere in the documents, descriptions of other later briefings to members of Congress repeatedly specify they’d been told about waterboarding.
Pelosi’s office says her recollection of the meeting is that they were told of some of the techniques, but that “waterboarding had not yet been used.” Earlier this month, Pelosi went further, saying that she had not been told that any of the techniques had been used, only that they were legal.
Right now, it appears to be the CIA’s word against Pelosi’s on the question of whether she’d been told any techniques had been used. And the documents are inconclusive on whether she’d been told of the use of waterboarding.
The question for the CIA right now is straightforward: Was Pelosi told about the use of waterboarding, or not? More on this to come.
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What does CTC stand for? It’s listed under briefers in the screen capture.
Greg
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There is another angle to this. The OLC memo authorizing EITs or to most of the rest of us torture was dated August 1, 2002. In that memo the supposition is that waterboarding would be something to be employed as a last resort. This briefing with Pelosi was given 3 days after that memo on August 4th. Now I am still not sold on whether or not they actually told Pelosi that they had used waterboarding on Abu Zubaydah. However if they did then it destroys the credibility of the CIA officers who were only supposed to use waterboarding as a last resort as well as Dick Cheney who has defended the use of waterboarding as recently as yesterday. Check this out.
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http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0509/Cheney_to_GOP_It_would_be_a_mistake_for_us_to_moderate.html?showall
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Cheney: Well, I don’t believe that’s true. That assumes that we didn’t try other ways, and in fact we did. We resorted, for example, to waterboarding, which is the source of much of the controversy … with only three individuals. In those cases, it was only after we’d gone through all the other steps of the process. The way the whole program was set up was very careful, to use other methods and only to resort to the enhanced techniques in those special circumstances.
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Now unless they are going to try to make the case that less than 3 days is sufficient to decide that other methods didn’t work then Dick Cheney and the rest of them are admitting that waterboarding was the first option not the last. We already know from the OLC memos that Zubaydah was waterboarded 83 times in the month of August so that also hurts their case.
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Regardless of where Pelosi ends up in all of this here is the most imporatant thing. If this report on the briefing is to be believed then what it evidences is that the CIA officers did not make a “good faith effort” to actually follow the legal cover they had been given by the OLC. That in point of fact opens them up to prosecution under the litmus test that Eric Holder has put forth so far. So if anything this report on the briefings should be pushing us closer to prosecutions of CIA officials and contractors. There simply is no way for them to say that they did all other forms of EITs for less than 3 days and then judged that they didn’t have any other choice than to use waterboarding.
And another thing. Pelosi was the ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee. Why didn’t she know more? Either she chose not to find out or CIA briefers glossed over what was really happening.
CTC is the Counterterrorism Center, according to teh Google.
CTC (National) Counterterrorism Center:
http://www.nctc.gov/
On way or another there will be no prosecution of those who ordered, approved, supported, or tolerated torture. For that reason CSI-Jacksonville (dot com) has filed a criminal complaint with the International Criminal Court (In the matter of George W Bush, Richard Cheney, Donald Rumsfel et al), the evidence it is based upon is mostly available at CSI-Jacksonville’s website. The complaint is available at Amazon as book BEFORE THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT
My bad, wrong date. She was briefed on Sept 4th not August 4th.
Unlike most of the rest of the world, I don’t know who told who what. But I do know that respondents on both sides of this issue seem to be absolutely willing to believe the worst possible case for their opponents and the best possible case for those with whom they agree. It is certainly easy to live in a world where those with whom you disagree are always wrong and those with whom you agree are always right.
I still say that thats a helluva turnaround from the authorization of torture on August 1st to Speaker Pelosi being briefed that Zubaydah had been waterboarded just a little over a month later. Especially when we know that other techniques were used on him like sleep deprivation and stress positions and waterboarding supposedly was supposed to be a last resort.
and, mrdon,
please explain why a rational person shouldn’t believe the worst possible case about people who have been shown to be egregious, outright liars on any number of occasions about issues large and small and who have every reason in the world, having been shown to have committed indisputable war crimes, to lie and lie again about the issue at hand. Please explain why these people should be accorded a shred of credibility.
This is a nonsensical controversy anyway and just another attempt by the right to muddy the waters. Even if Pelosi was fully briefed which does not appear to be the case that’s what it was…a briefing…not a consultation. And once she’d been briefed she couldn’t discuss it with anyone because it was classified. This is just another one of those Republican blame shifting exercises.
Delusion, writ large.
The usual hysteria from the right when it gets egg on its face. The method is odd: we brief you but you cannot say anything to anyone. So does the CIA want Congress to become complicit by saying: we brief but you do not repeat? This stuff is just ridiculous. What would we do if criminals started saying ” I did not kill him, just terminated him with extreme prejudice”. The word games we play????
“But I have a copy of the documents, and a PDF of them is right here. They don’t prove the “lying about waterboarding” charge by any means.
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The docs do show that according to the CIA, Pelosi was given a “description” of some of the enhanced interrogation techniques that had been used on Abu Zubaida.
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But the documents are inconclusive on a key charge being made by Republicans — that she had been told of the use of waterboarding, one of the harshest and most controversial torture techniques.”
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That’s a pathetic defense.
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Why is it that the left seems so intent on covering up Pelosi’s lies?
Nancy Pelosi would never lie, she’s a politician. Imagine the torture they must have felt being waterboardred, actually thinking you were going to drownn when you weren’t. I can’t think of anything worse. Oh ya’, getting your head chopped off. Now who did that?
Ottovbvs:
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“Even if Pelosi was fully briefed which does not appear to be the case that’s what it was…a briefing…not a consultation.”
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Another on the left excusing the lying from Democrats. Then, adding a non sequiter to make the argument more ridiculous. How typical.
The “documents don’t prove that Pelosi lied about waterboarding” defense is as lame as they come. On April 23, the Speaker took the podium and claimed that she didn’t know that [i]any[/i] of the enhanced interrogation techniques were being used at the time of the briefing: “We were not, I repeat, we were not told that waterboarding or any of these other interrogation methods were used.” As it turns out, what did the briefing cover? “Briefing on EITs including use of EITs on Abu Zubaydah, background on authorities, and a description of particular EITs that had been employed.” Is the leader of the House Democrats colossally stupid, a brazen liar, or both?
Umm, there is some confusion about the separation of powers in these comments. The CIA was REQUIRED to brief congress, this wasn’t a courtesy call. The secrecy involved is according to Congressional rules, not sanctions by the executive, and hence if Pelosi had any real complaints at the time she could have called for closed door meetings of the intelligence committee, or even the entire House. She certainly could have written objections to the white house, and she absolutely could have led bills to deny funding which is the power the Congress ultimately has. Thats that little thing we call ‘Congressional Oversight’. The fact that there was no political courage at the time to enforce it (aside from Senator Rockefellar tucking an unmailed letter in his desk just in case- profile in courage that) doesn’t mean Bush had no checks and balances.
“I do not recall a single objection from my colleagues. They did not vote to stop authorizing CIA funding. And for those who now reveal filed “memorandums for the record” suggesting concern, real concern should have been expressed immediately — to the committee chairs, the briefers, the House speaker or minority leader, the CIA director or the president’s national security adviser — and not quietly filed away in case the day came when the political winds shifted. And shifted they have. ”
Porter Goss, the Republican congressman at the meeting with Pelosi in question.
While the docs do not specifically say Pelosi was briefed on waterboarding, they do put the lie to her April statement, “we were not, and I repeat, were not told that waterboarding or” – wait for it – “any of these other enhanced interrogation techniques were used.” Assuming you buy the argument that waterboarding is torture and that it was the worst of the EIT’s used, this defense amounts to “I shot the deputy, but not the sherriff.” Dems will either have to shut up about EIT’s, or admit that their hands are not clean, either.
I just watched the Pelosi video again and she said she was not briefed on EIT’s. This memo clearly shows she was and who EIT’s were used on in atleast one case. While there may be some wiggle room she was not completely honest.
It is clear to me that most members of do the two step. I think they should all go and we should start over. They are not doing anything for most of us, just themselves.
What difference does it make ? It’s a red herring . Bush adm. broke our laws and International laws and the CIA was in the thick of it . Who do you believe Pelosi or the CIA under Porter Goss ?
It is true it does not prove she knew about waterboarding, but it does prove she lied.
Her quote said that she was not told that “waterboarding or ANY OTHER” EIT was being used.
This meeting discussed EITs that HAD been used. Even it they didn’t mention waterboarding (why not?), she lied as she said she was NEVER told WHAT had been or was being done.
Still lied. THAT’S THE POINT!
“Bush adm. broke our laws and International laws”
Umm… do some reading. They did not break any “laws”. And puh-lease, do not mention the Geneva conventions, they do not apply here. You may WANT them to or our govt. to follow them, that’s fine… but they do not apply legally here. So, no laws broken.
As the left used to say:
MoveOn!
Pelosi’s Quote: “…we were not told that waterboarding OR ANY OF THESE OTHER interrogation methods were used.
Waterboarding or not, she lied.
That’s a pathetic defense.
It’s called “reading.”
So we have two interpretations:
1. Pelosi’s statements which are basically that she didn’t know anything about anything.
2. That Pelosi did know that some form of enhanced interrogation…precedent setting stuff that hadn’t been used before…was being used.
Given that Pelosi was a senior member of Congress, had a seat on key oversight committees, and was eventually Speaker, I’d guess she knew SOMETHING. Her denials remind me so much of Barney Frank who accepts absolutely no responsibility for any part of the fiscal crisis…despite 30+ yrs in congress, seats on multiple committees, taped statements re the healh of Fannie/Freddie, etc.
Two faced liars and hypocrites.
You are delusional. Alive, safe, yapping as usual, but delusional.
So what you really mean to say is that all of those who do say that Pelosi was briefed and have shown proof that she was given a “description of the particular EITs that had been employed.” are liars, but Nancy Pelosi is the only one telling the truth. What does the words that she was given a description of the PARTICULAR Eits that HAD been employed, mean? It is proven that waterboarding was used specifically on Abu Zubaydah just days earlier. Even with proof of eyewitness testimony from Porter Goss and written records, you choose to believe in some super-conspiracy. This is evidence that would hold up in court, but you would rather belieev Nancy Pelosi. Why? because she is a democratic liberal, the same as you?
The claims of Speaker Pelosi are akin to those of the witness to an incident: consciously or unconsciously shaped by their prior experiences, the observations and conditions at the time of occurrence, and their interest—stated or unstated—in the outcome.
Did Speaker Pelosi lie? Quite possibly. Did she make claims that were likely to shield her from scrutiny and future liability? She quite likely did. Should she be held accountable for these actions? Certainly.
But, her actions and errors of omission—no matter how serious—pale by contrast with other actors. So, can we move on now to discuss the serious criminal behavior of the interrogators, both agency and contractor, and those in the chain of command responsible for for creating such conditions and looking the other way while such reprehensible conduct occurred? All the way up to the Office of the Vice President, the National Security Council, and the Office of the President, or anywhere the issue might lead?
According to the pdf, Pelosi was briefed with Porter Goss. Mr. Goss acknowledges they were briefed about waterboarding. So it’s Pelosi against the CIA and the other person who was briefed with her.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/22/us/politics/22detain.html?_r=2&pagewanted=3&hp
“We were briefed, and we certainly understood what C.I.A. was doing,” Mr. Goss said in an interview. “Not only was there no objection, there was actually concern about whether the agency was doing enough.”
gut
OK…if this is inconclusive and all of this stuff is being declassified anyway why can’t Ms Pelosi say which EIT was employed? What is she afraid of…the truth!?
Pelosi said:
“In that or any other briefing…we were not, and I repeat, were not told that waterboarding or any of these other enhanced interrogation techniques were used. What they did tell us is that they had some legislative counsel…opinions that they could be used.”
She cleary was told that EIT’s were being used. She doesn’t single out waterboarding here she says EIT’s. She lied.
Any of you people who think that waterboarding is torture should go talk to a Ranger or a SEAL and ask them if it’s torture or training because they get waterboarded as part of their training regiment.
Well there were at least 3 others in the room with Ms. Pelosi.
Porter Goss – Rep. Porter Goss (Florida, 14th)
Michael W Sheehy, Congressional Staffer ( http://www.legistorm.com/person/Michael_W_Sheehy/8941.html )
Tim Sample
These three heard the same information, maybe someone should ask them for a comment
Joe
Update on Tim Sample.
Timothy R Sample, Congressional Staffer http://www.legistorm.com/person/Timothy_R_Sample/48218.html
Joe
pat ess: You don’t suppose that Mr. Goss’s recollections might have been influenced by his subsequent tenure as CIA Director, do you?
I know one thing for sure…
Pelosi and most other prominent democrats were VERY willing to disclaim almost every other thing Bush and company stood for at the time, declaring most of them unwarranted and wrong, so to not double check to see if there was anything illegal about the enhanced interrogations was done solely for personal reasons… just as voting to go to war without checking the EIRs first after letting the entire country and world know Bush was to be disbelieved on all matters…
The Republican and Democrats we have in Washington are ALL destroying our way of life, and not bring them to justice will only expedite our downhill slide…
Just as in the failings at Freddie and Fannie Ms Pelosi has selective amnesia. Perhaps her future canned response should be “Tell me about the rabbits, George.”
I do not understand people now talking about torture. We have been safe for 8 years. I am sorry Pelosi does not have much credibilty with me. In her statement she said she was told water boarding had not been used but was legal. Where in this PDF is this mentioned. It is’nt. Using your logic I could write that she is lying about this. Where is the proof. I fear B.O. is taking us back to the days of attacks. Remember he released the person responsible for bombing of the U.S..S Cole. I am sure the family’s who lost loved ones are having problems with B.O’s legal decisions. One last thing. Was’nt it Eric Holder who would not let the intelligence community search Mohammed Atta’s desktop prior to 9/11. I was not a huge fan of President Bush but he did keep us safe. Using this current liberal socialist view of torture we need to try Harry Truman for dropping bombs on Japan when they were no longer a threat to our homeland. Thousands of civilians were killed by these bombs. I am glad you folks were not around during WWII, we would have surrendered after Pearl Harbor.
We are all ignorant if anyone believes that the CIA would not decieve Congress, or, anyone else in the government. Deception is what the CIA is based on.
For those of you that choose to believe Speaker Pelosi, I think at this point you should point out which VERSION of her truth you believe. Her story keeps changing, she keeps contrdicting her own stories, and I for one am getting confused. About the only certainty is that she lied. Which of her versions is a lie and which is a truth is all that needs to be determined. I don’t think we’ve heard the the real truth yet though, at least not from her.
No true – more documentation will surface as well as recordings – as long as there is no erasures in the tapes – Pelosi is D-O-N-E!
Mick – Having been a police officer for 20+ years – as well as a member of the military. I can tell you that Pelosi is clearly lying. If you believe that the congress, and the speaker hasn’t misled this country – well, then I guess you were dumb enough to vote for Obama – I hope you got your free bumper sticker!
I’ll trust the CIA over this clown, any day!
What a crooked politician! WHen will we stop putting up with these fat cats using the excuse, “…to the best of my recolection…” everytime they lie?
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