Happy Hour Roundup
* The debate continues to rage over whether to kill the bill, and I’ll admit that the breakdown isn’t as simplistic as I’d said. Interesting takes in favor of moving forward from Josh Marshall, Steve Benen, Paul Starr, Paul Krugman, Ezra Klein, and Matthew Yglesias.
* Meanwhile, John Aravosis, Mike Lux, and Jon Walker lean against, with caveats.
* End run around Lieberman in the works? Brian Beutler confirms that Harry Reid huddled with Olympia Snowe today to gauge her support for the Senate’s latest.
* If you missed it, be sure to check out Rachel Maddow’s segment on Lieberman’s history on the filibuster. Lots of good old footage in there.
* The Weekly Standard is reporting that White House bigfoots are threatening to close a massive Nebraska Air Force base to force Ben Nelson into line on health care.
* But Nelson spokesman Jake Thompson emails that it just ain’t so: “The rumor is not true. This misinformation is coming from inside the Beltway partisans who only want to derail health care reform.”
* For those who like this stuff, check out the snark in the Congressional GOP’s talking points on the Gitmo move to Illinois:
Having failed to bring the Olympics to Illinois, President Obama will give Illinois an odd replacement gift just in time for the Holidays — al Qaeda terrorists from the Guantanamo detention facility.
* Rachel Weiner notes that Lieberman gave away the game, basically admitting that he turned on the Medicare buy-in because liberals liked it.
* David Kurtz offers an unpleasant reality check on Lieberman: He’s not going anywhere, and there will be lots more opportunities ahead for him to mess with your heads.
* Bowing to the inevitable, HCAN calls on Senate to pass health care compromise.
* But Roland Burris keeps going rogue.
* One group that’s decidedly not going rogue: Forty GOP Senators, who look like they may unanimously oppose the health care bill.
* Another group that isn’t going rogue: House GOPers, who have proudly maintained united opposition to multiple Obama initiatives this month.
* Lynn Woolsey says Dems will stay home in 2010.
* And here’s today’s amusing installment in the Michele Bachmann chronicles.
Got anything else?
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lfo – yeah, I know. Sometimes I wonder if it’s a kind of spider – some kind of repeating program.
I have detected a pattern to when we get these sudden influxes of Right Wing Nut Jobs, and Racists, posting on this site.
It happens always when Teabaggers have been bussed in to Washington for one of their manufactured protests.
You saw the same type of Right Wing Racist comments being posted on the day when those Teabagger lunatics were last in town, when they tried to occupy Speaker Pelosi’s Office.
You also saw the surge in hate comments on the Saturday when they brought about thirty thousand to Washington and Fox tried to claim it was a million of them.
This is either those racists groups latching on to the Michele Bachmann Insanity, as a good cover for their hate groups, or it is an intentional flooding of the blog by the organizers.
One thing is for certain; the only times that this site gets flooded with vile racists comments, is when the Teabaggers are in town.
And welcome outside observer. I fully agree with your 2 million or whatever million march. If people want ‘change’, they gonna have to move their A$$eS.
LOL! Maybe it’s all the little lost lambs from LittleGreenFootballs. Squeaky Johnson had some rabid followers and then he went and rejected the right. Maybe they are just roaming the internet looking for places to alight and start fights.
Obama’s concealment of Republican Bush’s war crimes:
http://www.google.com/search?q=Obama+torture+photos
Come on, “Tena”, explain to me how silly it is of the D.F.Hippies to be concerned about allowing war criminals to remain unpunished.
Maybe “the left” is concerned because the next time the Republicans are in charge they’ll see Republican Bush’s torture programs as the FLOOR of “pragmatism”.
Maybe “the left” is concerned because they’ve been paying attention to how the past ripples into the future and each cycle of Republican crimes that goes unpunished means the next cycle is even worse: Nixon, Reagan, Bush 2, future Republican X….
And instead of addressing that Obama is helping them conceal their crimes.
They are lfo, I was having to swallow my chuckling as I read the “you’re exactly right [anonymous tag I've just met in this thread], that’s why we need to kill this bill!” It was a huge circle jerk, I don’t know how long I could stand being in there even if I agreed with them because it is all just a bunch of parroted talking points.
What happens after they don’t kill the bill is what I want to know, maybe they’ll declare victory and leave like in NY-23.
Paul W–they will be like the soldiers in some lost island still fighting the war years after it was over?
Tena–LOL, the former LGF crew as lost lambs, that is a funny image.
“maybe they’ll declare victory and leave like in NY-23.”
If only they’d leave for good; but they always come back.
lfo – I meant that lost lambs in the loosest sense possible. They’re more like a swarm of something unpleasant; usually things that swarm ARE unpleasant.
LOL
Tena – LOL. I love your barbs at the ratwing, as you call them. Only the other day, I learnt that John Cole of Baloon Juice was an ex-repub. And now ’squeaky’ johnson.
Greg’s last post went to the top of http://memeorandum.com (where it’s still at the top) as well as being linked to by LOTS of prominent bloggers (memeorandum lists about 2 dozen prominent blogs that link to it).
It was breaking news that caught the attention of both supporters and detractors of health care legislation because Doctor Howard Dean is a WONK and an activist that is known to be largely respected by the left.
The left took note for obvious reasons, the right climbed on board as a way of attacking healthcare legislation under cover of a “left wing” critic.
While Dr. Howard Dean’s criticisms are substantive and I respect them, my support is: Remove the forced-buy of corporate-medical-insurance and then pass the bill.
Wow just wow, just checked in after being gone all afternoon, that previous thread was wacky. I couldn’t read all of it, short on time and patience.
Looks like all hell broke loose once Dean said no way on the Senate bill. I don’t actually disagree with him but I don’t have the heart to “kill the bill”. I’m wondering if he carries any weight in pushing for reconciliation.
I know we can’t get insurance reform that way, but we’re getting some reform in the bill the way it is. Pass it and let everyone know we’re going reconcilliation right now on the PO in a separate bill. Is that impossible or am I missing something?
See in my mind the PO was what the public supported and you’re going to have a ton of people out there shaking their heads and wondering why we’re getting mandates without a PO. I keep wondering the same thing myself.
What a mess!!!!!
News Ref, keep trying.
Perhaps you are correct Liam…maybe you’re right Tena…I wasn’t here the last time the plague of locust arrived.
I just know it’s very, very disturbing. Not to have genuine disagreement…but when it’s simply hate and bile with absolutely no substantive thought behind it…my emotions and reaction range from anger at the racists…to pity for anybody so filled with irrational hate..to fear that we live in a country with these wack jobs.
Whatever..I found that last thread very, very disturbing!!!
rukidding – That thread was just like an average day at Eschaton in 2004.
Without the censor. The war stories I could tell about trolls…
Greg,
If you check in. I wanted to let you know that the site is now having the old problem of not showing all the comments.
It reverts to that old problem, after each time your site has crashed, so tell tech suppot to just fix it, the same way they ended up doing the last time.
“Pass it and let everyone know we’re going reconcilliation right now on the PO in a separate bill. Is that impossible or am I missing something?”
This sounds like the best idea out there.
“John Cole of Baloon Juice was an ex-repub. And now ’squeaky’ johnson.”
I guess Sully doesn’t quite qualify as ex_Republican, does he? People like Sully make me shake my head – he’s really such a Democrat. OR so he seems to me.
@Tena…I believe you could tell some war stories. I used to read our local papers online so I could see the reader comments at the end…they became so ignorant…so uninformed that I realized it was depressing me more than informing me.
When I found this blog I was so happy that with the exception of bilgey the comments were mostly thought out without the stupidity evidenced by typical Fox viewers. Even SBJ or QB don’t really defend the birthers and death panelists. The racists and ignoramuses on board today just boggle the mind.
Hopefully we have now returned to our oasis of sanity.:-)
There have been a couple of honest questions…points of view from folks who were respectful even though they were obviously conservative. I enjoy engaging those people because as I confessed earlier I used to be one of them and I feel perhaps I can connect…but when people simply hurl racial epithets…or long debunked views on rationing/death panels the inadequacy of foreign health care systems…it all becomes a huge waste of time.
My first awakening came in the 90’s when as a journalist I asked foreigners about their health care systems expecting what the health care lobby has injected into our DNA…was I ever mistaken and are these poor misguided fools who still fall for that right wing propaganda completely blind to reality!
Thanks Tena, it would go a long way to calm the progressives if they knew there was going to be two bills, one for reform and another one ASAP for the budget considerations such as the PO or Medicare buy in that only needed 51 votes in the Senate. But nobody in charge asked me, and there’s probably some sort of legislative hang up anyway.
“expecting what the health care lobby has injected into our DNA…”
Crazy when you find out, innit? The power of advertising – it’s also made it possible for the military to insinuate itself into literally ever aspect of our culture, from video games to mainstream Protestantism.
“t would go a long way to calm the progressives if they knew there was going to be two bills, one for reform and another one ASAP for the budget considerations such as the PO or Medicare buy in that only needed 51 votes in the Senate.”
Yes Imsinca…it would completely eliminate all of my concerns.
“But nobody in charge asked me, and there’s probably some sort of legislative hang up anyway.”
I frankly don’t know if there is a hang up. It makes so much sense to do it this way anyway, I don’t know why we haven’t just done this all along. So maybe there is a problem with it.
So — on the Rachel Weiner link Lieberman says he scuttled the Medicare buyin because Liberals liked it. And after each of his series of reasons for opposing HCR was shown to be BS, I would believe him now why?
Sadly, that is why we wonks (and even the activists) can talk about. But if Dean or a Senator like Schumer talked about going straight for reconciliation then people like Nelson and Lieberman would give up on even taking the asses we already handed to them. I think if we look like we’re beat, and to a large degree we were, we can still pull away with some really good stuff and something under our belts for the next fight… and there will be a next fight.
Paul W. – makes sense to me.
If the bill dies that is a defeat. IMO.
I think the reconciliation thing can be done, but let us not fool ourselves that it will be easy. Again. Conrad is the guy who heads that committee and he is no friend of the PO. Also it will e in the hands of the parliamentarian and would prevent any other legislation from getting through (I read this at Bennen)
I’m intellectually exhausted, I think I’ll call it a night. I’m looking forward to a day without trolls tomorrow!
Oh, and one thing I would ask news ref: if we put an employer mandate in with the individual mandate, with exemptions for small businesses with few workers, would that swing your support? The finance bill originally had that as a provision I think.
So Paul W, you’re saying we’re hoping that’s the strategy, maybe even from the WH, but they don’t want to give it away until the bill passes with the 60 we need. That’s interesting if it’s true, because then we would be able to understand why Reid has been so adamant about not using reconciliation.
I haven’t used the rope-a-dope analogy in awhile, but if, and it’s still a big if in my mind, that’s what they’re doing it could be brilliant. Pass the reform with everyone thinking that’s all we can get and then come back with the PO immediately by reconcilliation.
Well jeeze, I hope somebody over there is as smart as we are! HaaaaHaaaaHaaaa!
good night y’all.
I’m over and out for the night, maybe. Back to Christmasy things again, wrapping, baking, cards, all the usual things we all love to do. One of these nights, on a slow thread, I’m going to share with all of you how the tradition of putting an angel atop the Christmas tree began. It’s a longish story so I’m saving it till next week when things are slow, maybe.
Good night lfo. One love.
Good night,Imsinca. I’m in and out cause I’m doing that stuff, too.
Ooo,can’t wait for your story, Imsinca. I love stories. That’s what human beings really are – beings who love stories and make stories out of everything.
OT – via BBC
“Move to ban loud TV adverts in US
The US House of Representatives has approved a bill which aims to limit the volume of television advertisements.
The Commercial Advertisement Loudness Mitigation Act (CALM) was approved by a voice vote in the house.
Democrat Anna Eshoo, who filed the motion, said most Americans were willing to tolerate adverts but were annoyed by sudden volume increases.
She said broadcasting industry’s current voluntary system had failed to deal with the issue.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/americas/8415214.stm
Would that law apply to blowhards like limp, insanity and other rightwing nutjob radio and teevee shock jocks ?
“She said broadcasting industry’s current voluntary system had failed to deal with the issue.””
O god thank you. I remember when they couldn’t do that and then the Republicans came to power.
And we need a Consumer advocate desperately. We’re being ripped off right and left in the grocery store.
I’ve sort of been waiting to see what Anthony Weiner had to say about HCR now that things have gotten so dicey. He hasn’t addressed whether he would vote for reform as it seems to exist now, but he sure had a lot to say about Lieberman saying he wouldn’t vote for Medicare buy in because liberals like it.
Weiner’s full statement:
“This afternoon The New York Times and other news outlets reported that Senator Lieberman was backing away from his own health care proposal, in part because I liked it.”
“If this wasn’t so sad, it would be amazing. Here you have the most important legislation for millions of Americans’ health and welfare, and apparently Senator Lieberman backs away from his own proposal. Why? Because I and a professor at Yale like it.”
“All I can say charitably is I hope Senator Lieberman looks into his heart and does the right thing. This is not the time for anyone to act for politics, but to do the right thing. Let’s be clear, this is an idea Senator Lieberman has proposed, repeatedly. That others embrace it should not be the criteria for leaders to make decisions. It would be tragic if this is what it appears, a decision based on hurting proponents of reform not helping the millions who need affordable health care coverage.”
“Some may say reformers should never have praised this measure. But that suggests we all agree to live in an Alice in Wonderland world of saying the opposite of what we mean. Now is the time to talk and act on the merits of an issue. Now is the time for leaders to make the right choices, not political calculations.”
One more quick alert from the Health Care News Wire, now that we have a watered down bill, Landrieu is totally behind it:
Landrieu said in a statement: “These are monumental gains that will help restore fiscal responsibility to a system that has run amok with waste, fraud and abuse. While there is still some work to do, I am confident that we have found enough common ground for the Senate to seize this historic opportunity. I look forward to moving this legislation forward before the holiday recess.”
outsideobserver: The thing is, the bill before the Senate is very similar to what you say you have in your country. It relies on private insurers combined with stiff regulations and subsidies. A great number of European countries solved their health care problems with the same solution, so I see no reason to automatically think that the solution Congress is examining couldn’t work.
I’m sad that we couldn’t make it that last mile, and I’m furious at Lieberman, but that doesn’t make the remaining bill not worth it. Sure, there might have to be tweaks to the regulations or to the subsidy structure, but by in large the framework is all there.
Also, even though Dean wants to “kill the bill”, not all lefty heroes feel the same way. Krugman, while he doesn’t love it, thinks it should be passed.
“Krugman, while he doesn’t love it, thinks it should be passed.”
IF it doesn’t get worse:
“Paul Starr — a veteran of the Clinton attempt — says that we should just pass the thing and try to fix it later. I guess I grudgingly agree — unless Lieberman demands further changes, gutting the bill. And I have a sick feeling that he’ll do just that.”
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/15/paying-the-liebergeld
My support is would require the removal of the forced-buy of corporate-medical-insurance OR the inclusion of a robust public option.
Forcing Americans to buy corporate-medical-insurance without offering a public option is AWFUL politics and LOUSY policy.
“France to bring in bank bonus tax
French Finance Minister Christine Lagarde says France will introduce a tax on bankers’ bonuses similar to the one introduced in the UK.
Any bonus above 27,000 euros ($39,000; £24,000) will be taxed at a rate of 50% on payments given out in 2010.
Ms Lagarde told reporters that a bill would be brought before the French parliament in January.
Last week, UK Chancellor Alistair Darling announced a similar measure in his pre-Budget report.
France was at the forefront of calling for action on bankers’ pay at the G20 summit earlier this year.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/business/8415851.stm
But then, France is teh evil socialist country where people die everdday because of ebil gobinment.
“Citigroup in rift with Abu Dhabi
Citigroup says the Abu Dhabi Investment Authority (ADIA) has filed a claim against it seeking to stop a 2007 deal to buy $7.5bn (£4.6bn) worth of stock.
If the deal is not blocked, ADIA is asking for damages of more than $4bn.
ADIA, one of the largest sovereign wealth funds in the world, agreed the $7.5bn investment into Citigroup at the height of the banking crisis.
This was to be converted into shares at a price of $31.83-$37.24 a share between March 2010 and September 2011.
However, Citigroup’s share price was at $3.56 by the close of trade on Tuesday – about a 10th of the value at which Abu Dhabi agreed to pay in 2007 – and ADIA no longer wants to go ahead with the plan.
Citigroup says Abu Dhabi is alleging “fraudulent misrepresentation”, a claim the bank says is “entirely without merit and intends to defend against them vigorously”.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/business/8415499.stm
Morning all. You know, I have to give Krugman his dues, he has come a long way from the primaries and the beginning of the administration (remember that he backed Hilary, who was a proponent for a mandate while Obama wasn’t for those of you not wanting a mandate) to the point where he is more ready to acknowledge the political short comings of enacting good policy. Likely this has something to do with the radical way that the Republicans have acted in Congress.
When it comes to taxing bonuses, I’m quite skeptical of a one-off tax of such high rates… why wouldn’t banks just push bonuses forward to another year or compensate them in some other way? I am a supporter of a stock transaction task to help set aside a fund used to wind down systemically risky banks. I like the general direction of the new financial regulation, and you can see it for yourself in a handy summation, there are some points where it is lacking.
Good-reducing debt-to-equity to 15-1 (under Glass-Stegal I think it was at 11 or 12), bigger capital cushions, power to break up bank-like entities, ongoing testing of systemic stress testing, Fed monatary policy subject to auditing, you get the idea… most important is a doubling of funding to the SEC and a consumer protection watchdog established.
To me, it is missing reform when it comes to ratings agencies where government requirement that one of the 2-3 major agencies had to grade your debt, creating an incestuous relationship and leading to people (essentially) purchasing good ratings.
Morning roundup posted, all:
http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/senate-republicans/the-morning-plum-31/