T-Paw Admits There Are No Death Panels — But Says You Should Be Afraid, Anyway!
I’m surprised this isn’t getting more attention: Tim Pawlenty gave an extraordinary interview on Morning Joe today in which he repeatedly refused to say the “death panel” tale is false, and even said those who fear the death panels are not “irrational” to do so.
And then, after getting pressed very hard, he finally conceded that there are no death panels in the health care proposals and acknowledged the elderly wouldn’t get pressed to relinquish their lives. But he still went on to say fears were not unfounded! A must watch:
Asked the first time if there are death panels in the bills, Pawlenty dodged the question and said that the proposal could “incentivize end of life counseling,” which raised “legitimate” questions and concerns that are “not irrational.” Asked a second time, Pawlenty suggested that the death panel “label” was a side issue.
Asked a third time, Pawlenty dodged again, saying that in 10 years, ballooning costs could lead to a scale-back of care and suggested it’s legit to fear that the government would be “empowered to do that.” Finally Pawlenty acknowledged that the bill doesn’t contain death panels and won’t give government authority to tell people whether they live or die — and then still added that “indirect concerns” are “not irrational”!
Two quick points. First, this shows that in the wake of Obama’s speech last night, in which he directly confronted the death panel claim, Republicans have no intention to let up on this particular brand of fearmongering. And second, the dance done here by Pawlenty perfectly illustrates the challenging balancing act GOP officials need to do when they want to remain viable with the GOP base — as Pawlenty does for 2012 — while still positioning themselves as vaguely mainstream and rational.
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Personally I find invoking the States Rights Doctrine a bit more serious than another lie about death panels.
watch the vid, Tena. it’s very entertaining, trust me.
This man is an idiot! He has about as much a chance of being president as Norm Coleman has of runnng for the Senate again. Pawlenty is a dull, boirng and clearly ignorant man. A drone. If we get a good healthcare bill with a strong public option and no triggers, the Republicans will be dead for 40 or 50 years. Maybe longer.
Greg – Ok. That’s a fair response.
I’m surprised as well. I thought of TPaw as a republican moderate, but he came out early and hard on the side of the Obama-is-going-to-indrocinate-our-schoolchildren fringe. And even after the lesson plan was changed and others were backing down, he was still on CNN and other mainstream news outlets expressing his concerns about the President talking to school kids. It’s concerning to me how extreme the seemingingly moderates are going.
And this 10th amendment **** won’t work anyway. Why don’t they seem to understand that a public option is just that. The people of all the states don’t have to purchase it. That’s why it’s called an OPTION! The Republican party and it’s supporters are the stupidest people on the planet. The Dems should never be afraid of them because their supports are more educated and in touch with reality!
Authoritarian followers prime motivation is fear. To keep the base in line, the Republican party has to keep pumping up the fear. I wonder what the people of Minnesota think about their Governor musing on involing the States Rights Doctrine.
You’ll also note that Joe Scarborough who is king of the idiots never mentioned Pawlenty’s stance on the school speech. I can’t stand Jethro Scarborough and would look forward to this tool running for president almost as much as the former idiots Govenor of Alaska.
Great catch Greg. Now we are talking. The sudden ‘concern’ the repugs have for grandma is touching really. Kudos to joe for sticking to the point.
You’re right. The repugs have gotten the deathhold on the death panels and won’t let go. And Dave Weigel tweets that in a tea bagger meet today, where all the entire gop house leadership is present, the tea baggers are yelling Liar whenever one of the reps says President. So they seem to be doubling down on the liar meme too.
By 2012, the gene pool of republican party will only consist of birthers, deathers and mouth-breathers.
He got a bit testy.
I’m starting to notice a pattern with Republicans.
Their philosophy is driven by paranoia.
good catch Greg. But we should note that they will be seen as moderate and mainstream only if the media allow them to get away with it. they should be made to embrace their inner wingnut or disavow it. do your work journalists!
Hey Greg, can you get a hold of the DNC video released last night here in NoVA. It was on CNN so it possibly hit nation wide. It hit the Republicans pretty hard on trying to kill Medicare in the past.
Here is the link. It’s worth showing I think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59qMNRHupNI
I laughed out loud this morning when Jethro tried to justify the Republican philosophy of tax cuts which translate into jobs through investments. Unfortunately, there was no one there to ask, “Well what the hell happened over the last 8 years”? They got their wish and look how that turned out! He’s always talking about the deficits and how Obama is adding to it with the healthcare bill which is about 1 trillionbut, he never mentions that the 2 wars are at 2.48 million. I wonder why he never mentions that? (snark)
“Indirect” provisions – o for god’s sake.
If they don’t think that procedures and costs are rationed now by insurance companies – what the hell can we talk to them about and the side calling the other side names is Pawlenty’s side. I’m sick of them trying slide out from under responsibility for their behavior.
Mr. Sargent:
Is it AT ALL possible for you to cease and desist from attacking other Americans for ONE LOUSY DAY?
Have you no sense of shame?
Today is the 8th anniversary of the day when ALL Americans, regardless of what their politics were, were attacked for BEING Americans.
Wingnut firefighters lost their lives trying to save moonbat business people. Moonbats lost their lives helping injured wingnuts down stairways.
None of this sh*t that seems so important to you mattered one little bit.
Can you find the decency within yourself to NOT attack your fellow Americans and just stand together in silence for a few hours, on this of all days?
Put it down and let it be for the rest of the afternoon. In their memory.
Please!
“:Hey Greg, can you get a hold of the DNC video released last night here in NoVA. It was on CNN so it possibly hit nation wide. It hit the Republicans pretty hard on trying to kill Medicare in the past.”
mike – I hope we keep hammering them with that – I think it’s deadly for the Repugs.
I’m also sick of them claiming that both sides are doing the name calling. Nice try losers but, until I see Dems showing up with signs calling Obama Hitler and all the other garbage, I’m not buying it. It’s pretty pathetic. It’s like some 4 year old “He did it too” I saw the clip on thinkprogress of these idiots yelling “Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire! Now that’s original and very mature!
Greg – please ignore the trolls. Not that I think you’ll pay any attention to them.
They’d love for the Repugs to get a time out on their ridiculous behavior and lies.
OT – via dkos
Conservative Activists Are Proving to be a Pathetic Bunch
Posted By Erick Erickson
Some of you will take offense at this post. Instead, you should take action.
The Democrat opponent to Congressman Joe Wilson has raised over $400,000.00 since last night.
What have you given to Joe Wilson. The man spoke for America. And now we need to open our wallets for Joe.
It does no good to pat Joe on the back or give him an “atta boy.” Joe Wilson needs us to open our wallets and checkbooks. Joe Wilson is now a serious threat to Barack Obama because he dared point out that the Emperor has no clothes. The left will target him. The left will target his family. The left will try to destroy Joe Wilson.
We can stop the left. But we must give generously to Joe.
Prove that conservatives are not pathetic activists. Put your money where your mouth is.
Give to Joe.
From erick frigging erickson, no less.
ROTFLMAO
Sorry but, I’m with Greg and I believe in calling people what they are. That party is filled with hateful biggots and people who are just plain stupid. The best thing that can be said about the Republican party is that it continues to shrink. Too bad we can’t pull the plug on them! There was a writer named Les Payne who worked for Newsday and he had a great saying “Tell the truth and Duck”.
And Greg, isn’t it time to take the much promised action of banning trolls like bilgeman ?
amk- I second that motion.
@amk: Wilson is still far behind Miller, but he has already raised $200,000.
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/58317-wilson-vs-miller-money-chase-is-on-as-wilson-raises-200k
FEAR! The one campaign issue in which the Republican party can claim an advantage! I say to my fellow Republican brethren, lose the fear and embrace hope even if your pappy’s pappy’s pappy would feel awkward having a President of African decent. Let old wounds heal, and work for a better, healthier future for all Åmericans!
Maybe such a change to hope will produce some actual ideas on policy worthy of our time and attention. Until then, we will be continually held up by the corrosive political strategy monopolizing the Repulbic agenda, getting us nowhere! -Kevo
sbj
that’s still 4 to 1. Good luck catching up. BTW, have you done your duty for your partay ?
“And this 10th amendment **** won’t work anyway. ”
No it won’t but just how revealing is it that they are attempting to invoke it now?
This is a civil rights era battle – and they are pulling us backwards into that fight that was over a long time ago.
“They’d love for the Repugs to get a time out on their ridiculous behavior and lies.”
That’s pretty ironic given the pasting I just gave you on the other thread for your patently ridiculous behaviour and lies, which you didn’t even try to defend except with playground sneers.
I read on Salon.com this morning that they’re not claiming that they’ve raised $200,000 dollars for Joe. The problem is that this info came from one of Joe Wilson’s campaign staffers. Now, personally I’m not buying it. Most of the geezers in that party’s base don’t own a computer. If they’re sending him money it’s going through regular mail which would not be received the same day it was sent out. Now, if the younger Republican supporters are sending money through the internet, it’s still not likely to have reached such a high number so quickly. Remember…Obama crushed the GOP in the youg people demographic. Since Democratic supporters clearly outnumber them, just who is sending all of this money…..SPACEMEN? Or is it coming from Jebus?
Those individuals posting under the name of Bilgeman are kind of entertaining; but they do suck up a lot of oxygen. A ban would make for easier reading, and a more serious discussion.
quarterback – I’ll break my rule about ignoring you twits just to tell you that you didn’t do **** to me.
You are a troll and in case you haven’t noticed, nobody here has any intention of giving credence to things posted by trolls. I have no interest in answering your lies and excuses.
Whoops! Ignore the word not!
the 400,000 for wilson opponent was from about 20,000 new contributers from what i read.
I wonder the number of contributers for Wilson’s 200,000 was.
Plus the DNC says the daily fundraisign for them hit 1 mill and increased “action” volunteer sign ups after Joe’s outburst.
I wonder if the RNC can say the same.
Joe’s constituents are instead donating their Cialis and Lipitor pills since all their money has gone to paying their prescriptions due to the big donut hole Democrats are trying to get patched up with PhRMA’s help.
Here’s how we can get rid of them in the next ten seconds – What do you think of the huge jump in the polls for Obama? A 14 point jump! Also did you know that the Congressionl GOP rating is 17% favorable and 70% unfavorable? Also the GOP in general is 22% favorable and 68% unfavorable? Now, tell me again how the GOP won the month of August with their klan rallies, I’m sorry, Townhalls?
qb, what are you babbling about incessantly ? shrub, darth & neocons lied to the whole world and started an illegal war claiming thousands of lives. They inherited a budget surplus economy and drove it into the ditch. Their $tupid economic policy created a wall street bubble which eventually burst hurting the entire world economy. Their crimes are countless. So you can go f*ck yourself while sucking on a rotten egg.
I saw/heard Pawlenty this morning, and there was this “yeah, but” quality to his insistence that sounded just like SBJ. Clearly they went to the same paid partisan hack school. With fondness, S.
Do you remember TPaw’s stiff upper lip after Palin got called up to the bigs? He really, really struggled to keep it classy. Now he’s got Bachmann taking the mantle as most red meat conservative Minnesotan. The guy can’t catch a break. He’s dancing as fast as he can, and he just can’t cut it. Shnook.
Pawlenty should have simply been upfront…the issue is not and never was whether the bill specifically created death panels. The issue has always been, and remains, that if the government becomes involved in paying for health care, it will eventually have to make cost/benefit decisions regarding care. And that will, of necessity, involve telling some people they will not get life-prolonging care that they otherwise might want to get.
“Death panels” are of course not specifically legislated for in the bill. They are simply the logical consequence of the path down which progressives wish to force us.
True authoritarian follower that Scott C. Fear based and can’t hear reason.
Looks like John McCain has joined the Lie-at-all-cost Express.
Just got an email from his old campaign arm.
Here’s the neat part.
“The prospective cost of the President’s plan could reach $2 trillion, and frankly, our country simply cannot afford this price tag. ”
I think John McCain is seeing double now and adding the duplicate 900 billion numbers together.
@mike: Do you realize that the $900 billion number syncs up with the Senate plan – the one without public option?
scott – we get it, you would rather die at private hands than at the gobinment ones. Next ?
Scott C. your observation neglects the already existing Death Panels run by private insurance companies. Is it these established Panels you are defending? You like the existing private death panels over any public sponsored ones?
To argue the Death Panel issue is like jousting with windmills – you are truly stupid if you try such a Don Juan move! -Kevo
sbj, Should I care?
I’ve always been of the belief that if they can achieve near universal coverage with containing cost growth, preventing discrimination of pre-existing conditions, making it affordable to all, then problem solved.
Problem I worry about is this and it’s what happened in Mass.
I think Mass is down to like 1-2% not covered relying on a system with purely private insurers. Costs continued to grow at the rates that have caused every other insurer out there to drain cash from society.
Unless some regulations are placed on insurers that are wanting to be included in the insurance pool, rates may continue to climb at the rate they are and eventually the whole system could implode.
Scott C.
It’s been a really long time since we’ve seen a Republican leader be up front. At least you try, as a conservative citizen, to have a rational discussion based on some of the facts. The problem is that most of us trust the government over the insurance industry on this one. We have some control there. Your Death Panels already exist. I’ve resisted the personal on this site, but I lost a 30 year old niece to one of them and your arguments are falling on deaf ears.
I choose hope and courage over fear. We lived the last 8 years basing our decisions on fear of the enemy, the unknown, the government and each other. We’re done now. Time to get back to the real business of this country and fix everything that’s broken. We’re just not getting anything from the Repub leadership except more fear, lies and distortions.
@mike: “sbj, Should I care?”
I think we are mostly in agreement! I’m all for reform. I worry that the Baucus proposal won’t reduce h/c costs and will increase fed liability over the long term.
Angela:
True authoritarian follower that Scott C.
Huh? Who’s authority am I following? I am actually objecting to giving the government more authority. As for “following”, of all the examples on this board, no honest or sane person would pick me out as exhibiting the characteristics of a “follower”.
amk:
we get it, you would rather die at private hands than at the gobinment ones.
That is not at issue. At issue is the nature of reality, and Obama’s attempt to sell to the public a world on which reality does not impinge.
Scott C. your observation neglects the already existing Death Panels run by private insurance companies. Is it these established Panels you are defending? You like the existing private death panels over any public sponsored ones?
I am not “defending” anything. I am simply pointing out a truism…cost/benefit decisions are a function of reality. They are unavoidable. We make them as individuals, businesses make them, and governments make them. It is disingenuous for Obama to pretend that these types of decisions will not be a part of government provided health care.
With private insurers, we are making these decisions ourselves when we sign a contract. When/if the government starts to provide for healthcare, it will make these decisions for us with a raise of hands and a swish of the pen. I prefer the former.
That last (mistakenly) emboldened bit should have been addressed to kevo.
Democrats again make two contradictory arguments.
We’ve heard from Obama on down that death panels would never exist under government health care; now you all say, of course there would be death panels, but that is okay because private insurance has death panels, too. And you would rather trust death panels run by the government than death panels you agree to under contract.
How do you folks never realize your internal contradictions?
Yeah, that “balancing act” worked out really well for Romney.
I just couldn’t cast my vote for someone that defends such nonsense. Or for someone thats standing on the wrong side of sanity, or is a fearmongerer, or a liar, or a purveyor of propaganda. In short, I couldn’t vote for a republican.
“I choose hope and courage over fear. We lived the last 8 years basing our decisions on fear of the enemy, the unknown, the government and each other. We’re done now. Time to get back to the real business of this country and fix everything that’s broken. We’re just not getting anything from the Repub leadership except more fear, lies and distortions.”
Only in the bizzaro-paranoia land of liberals. George Bush left a lot to be desired in many ways, and regularly disappointed conservatives. But he was by any sane measure infinitely better than the radical neo-Marxist demogogues in whose hands we now are.
Scott C. your perspective has more than a tinge of distrust in it. Until you can see our democratic representative govenment as something other than the menacing boogeyman, your point of view will continue to be confused on the issues, disoriented on the merits, and misnomered on the arguments!
Your idea of contractual arrangments with existing private insurers doesn’t hold up to the scrutiny that has already shown private insurers all too willing to breach contracts to deny coverage – a distrust of mine borne out by the data!
Your are naively projecting the cost/benefit analysis leading to “Death Panels” as an exclusive practice of government. Though you lump business and individuals into your cost/benefit observation, you leave out the fact private insurers also use such analyses which often lead to premature deaths among the people they claim to cover, (and who have in good faith kept their premium payments current).
The legislative proposals up to now have nothing about an eventual government takeover in them, and I must emphasize my view that you are unduly paranoid about a govenment of the people, by the people, and for the people! -Kevo
Quarterback – welcome back, but try to keep up with the arguments! I do think you have not the ability to articulately define your term, neo-Marxist demogogues, let alone put such a term into correct national/cultural context. Go home and take care of your ignorance before it gets the better of you! -Kevo
lmsinca:
It’s been a really long time since we’ve seen a Republican leader be up front.
I don’t think our current political leaders (in either party) are particularly different than at most other times. We have had, in our history, a few exceptional leaders, although it is certainly arguable whether even they were especially “up front” with the electorate. Despite the adoration that Obama gets from the left, I don’t think he has yet shown himself to be an exceptional leader. An exceptional orator, yes. But only time will tell on his leadership. To be fair, he hasn’t been around long enough to really judge.
The problem is that most of us trust the government over the insurance industry on this one. We have some control there.
I think you are fooling yourself. None of us as individuals has any control at all over government…we are pawns. How much control over government did you feel when Bush was president and the R’s controlled congress? How happy will you be when, having granted government a tremendous amount of new control over both the economy and individuals, the government is suddenly populated with people who you don’t particularly like or trust? Our founders were distrustful of government power. So am I.
Your Death Panels already exist.
To some extent that is true. I have been saying all along that cost/benefit decisions are a fact of reality. But insurers are bound by contracts. The government is bound only by the law which it makes up itself.
I’ve resisted the personal on this site, but I lost a 30 year old niece to one of them and your arguments are falling on deaf ears.
Obviously I don’t know the specifics, and I have no doubt that injustices have occurred. But if the insurance company treated her unjustly (ie abrogated its contract), where was the government that is supposed to enforce it?
I choose hope and courage over fear… Time to get back to the real business of this country and fix everything that’s broken.
I don’t want to seem disrespectful or flippant to you. I really don’t. But these are just the saccharin platitudes of a politician. There is nothing about “hope and courage” which necessitates advocating more government intervention. Indeed, it is not the role of the government to “fix everything that’s broken”, and a government that tries to is a recipe for a disaster. Again, force is the only tool at the government’s disposal, and that is a tool we all should be wary of.
Kevo, do you mean arguments that have any rational content or structure, or the irrational, emotional outbursts that you folks pass off as “arguments”? I don’t really try to “keep up” with all of the latter.
I doubt you have the ability to grasp why Obama and his crew are neo-Marxist demogogues. Tutoring you on the subject isn’t a job I would want to undertake. It’s fairly self-evident to a reasonably educated person who has studied the subject.
If you have to proclaim that an argument is “not irrational” then is it really?
kevo:
your perspective has more than a tinge of distrust in it.
Of course it does. If I were not already well familiar with the internal contradictions of progressives, I would sit in wonder that a group that had just spent the last 8 years screaming and yelling about the outrages purpetrated by their own government are now suddenly so trustful of government power.
Your idea of contractual arrangments with existing private insurers doesn’t hold up to the scrutiny that has already shown private insurers all too willing to breach contracts to deny coverage – a distrust of mine borne out by the data!
I woudln’t mind seeing the data you are talking about, but in any event, isn’t it the job of government to enforce legal contracts? If the government unwilling to enforce those contracts, why are you so trusting of it?
Your are naively projecting the cost/benefit analysis leading to “Death Panels” as an exclusive practice of government.
This is simply false. I have said explicitly that cost/benefit decisions are a fact of life for individuals and businesses.
you leave out the fact private insurers also use such analyses which often lead to premature deaths among the people they claim to cover, (and who have in good faith kept their premium payments current).
Again, if private insurers are improperly abrogating their contracts, why isn’t the government doing its job enforcing them?
The legislative proposals up to now have nothing about an eventual government takeover in them,
Of course they don’t. They just bring that day one step closer, as many of the advocates of the current plans readily admit, nay proclaim.
…and I must emphasize my view that you are unduly paranoid about a govenment of the people, by the people, and for the people!
Spending the last few weeks on this blog reading the screeds of a (hopefully insignificant) progressive subset of “the people” shows that my “paranoia” is more than justified.
Yo, quarterback and Scott C. I am a libertarian Republican of over the past 31 years, I don’t suffer kindly the musing of waify liberals, but I can also see the value in smart government that honors the individual over the corporate overlords in my nation. The freedoms with which you are concerned, and see as being taken away by this “neo-Marxist crew” have already been boxed, trimmed and bundled by corporate power that has an undue advantage over individual citizens here in good ol’America.
Yes, it is the gov’t’s. domain to see that contracts are honored, but after 8 years of dismantling enforcement from the SEC on down to safety policies, we need to rebuild mechinisms of accountablity for all those gaming our society! -Kevo
kevo:
The freedoms with which you are concerned…have already been boxed, trimmed and bundled by corporate power that has an undue advantage over individual citizens here in good ol’America.
That is quite possible. But if corporations have an undue advantage, it is due to corrupt politicians. And yet you support putting even more power into the hands of those politicians? That is quite an odd strategy, it seems to me.
but after 8 years of dismantling enforcement from the SEC on down to safety policies, we need to rebuild mechinisms of accountablity for all those gaming our society!
8 years ago the government wasn’t operating as an insurance company. If the problems that supposedly necessitate this plan occurred because of changes in the last 8 years, then plainly no such necessity exists.
Pawlenty used the word “facts” a lot, but when pressed, his argument was about speculation. “Speculation” is not synonymous with “facts”, and as a tool of legitimate debate, it’s not a particularly convincing one.
After all, BOTH sides can play the “what if…then…” fear game. Certainly, liberals have a just a convincing argument that private insurers will have de facto “death panels” in a few years time (some could say that they exist NOW). So you see, speculation is a rather meaningless device for dictating policy.
But Republicans have excelled at its use. WMDs in Iraq? Well, we don’t have evidence, but what about the “mushroom cloud” in our future? Again, bad policy, bourne of speculation, not facts.
Lesson of the day: Forward-thinking is appropriate, but beware the politician who claims to have a crystal ball portending impending doom. Make sure his speculation is based on actual trends and data, rather than mere supposition.
Scott
I didn’t comment on Obama or his leadership skills in my last post. I did however mention the repub. leadership as being missing. Sorry, but I haven’t really seen much constructive conversation on that front lately. The extremists have overtaken the party IMO and some libs are glad about it, because it signals their position as the minority for many years to come. I would prefer a more productive discourse however and I sense you would to.
I don’t see a public option in health care as the big bad boogey man that you do. The insurance industry has run amok and the hand of government is the only entity that can reign it back in. This has more to do with insurance reform than the public option. I find your argument somewhat confusing because you say deregulation would lower costs, which I assume means opening up the market across state lines. This would take the regulation out of state hands and guess who will have to fill that gap, the federal government. I live in a very open state for insurance comapanies and it has done nothing to lower our costs and the scams are being litigated constantly.
The insurers are bound by contracts if you can get insurance. These are the death panels that are killing people now, including my niece. To reduce the argument to contracts and government intervention leaves the heart out of health care.
Our representatives in government can most certainly fix things that are broken, many of which occurred in the previous administration. I didn’t waste my time in the last 8 years sitting around fearful and angry because we had a president I didn’t choose, I went out and campaigned and fought to replace the ideological and partisan conservatism that brought us to our knees.
Choosing courage and hope over fear is how I live my life and has nothing to do with government control. I happen to be an optomistic person who believes in my own power to make a difference for myself, my family and my neighbors no matter who’s in control of our government. It’s only a slight difference between the dems and the reps when they are not taken over by the fringes.
You seem to think Obama is fringe, I stronly disagree. It’s the repubs in congress and the consevative members of the media, the movers and shakers of campaigns, the corporate hacks, and the backwoods militia types that have cast him as such. Not that many people are buying it thank god, but it is damaging our country and I do think this is worse than we’ve seen in years.
Scott C. you jumped the shark on me as I have never averred putting more power in the hands of politicians – your misreading of my arguments! Smart government is not socialism as you have inferred.
For me, the market and competition are folcums we must maintain to maintain our cultural way of life. You beg the issue in your last paragraph by side stepping the issue of highly concentrated markets that ****** efforts by commmon Americans to access affordable health care. Would you at least agree with me on this point? If not, how do you see the market and competition and the firms and industries that would skirt or game the market so they will not be threatened by competition? Please share your insight!
But there are death panels already in operation!
For years the republicans have been participating in their own genuine death panels to decide which babies and seniors need to be killed.
Don’t forget the state of Texas (republican governor) deliberately killing baby Sun Hudson against the mother’s wishes and senior citizens who are ill under the Advance Directives Act of 1999 approved by Bush.
kevo:
I have never averred putting more power in the hands of politicians – your misreading of my arguments!
Perhaps I assumed too much. I assumed that you are in favor of government provided insurance. If I was incorrect, please set me straight.
For me, the market and competition are folcums we must maintain to maintain our cultural way of life.
I fully agree.
You beg the issue in your last paragraph by side stepping the issue of highly concentrated markets that ****** efforts by commmon Americans to access affordable health care. Would you at least agree with me on this point?
Sure. The biggest problem in this respect is government regulation which prevents competition. No doubt some insurance companies have encouraged this very regulation, which benefits them. This was precisely the type of corruption that I spoke of. When government (state or federal) passes such regulations, it is a failure of government, and it is this which must be addressed.
BTW, the real problems driving up health care costs, including regulations that prevent competition, pre-date Bush’s term in office. He can certianly be blamed for not addressing the problems, but it is wrong to suggest that “after 8 years” this is suddenly an issue.
I like the new Republican tag line: “I am not irrational.” Perhaps not as catchy as “I am not a crook”, but likely as with Nixon to be eventually proven the opposite of what the speaker said.
Scott C. said… How much control over government did you feel when Bush was president and the R’s controlled congress?
I think you missed the point about what happened in 2006 and 2008. There was a mechanism to correct the mistakes of that era, and it worked pretty well. Was damage done prior to that? “You betcha’!” But the electorate forced the GOP to pay a price for its excesses.
But insurers are bound by contracts. The government is bound only by the law which it makes up itself.
First, the government has some level of accountability via elections. Insurance companies do not. And with the lack of competition in many regions, in part due to the huge cost of entry into the health insurance business, no real mechanism for accountability exists other than the courts.
Now looking at use of the courts, there have been lawsuits against health insurance companies for a lot longer than 8 years. The companies view them as a cost of business. The individual harm done while trying to settle is enormous. And it can include death if denial of service occurs at the wrong time.
Another thing to realize about using the courts is that it’s an unfair fight. The plaintiff usually has the resources to hire one lawyer, maybe even a one with help from within their firm. The insurance companies have large legal departments that do nothing but fight these types of cases all the time.
One last thing to remember. Advocating use of the courts is potentially telling people to go through a major legal battle at a time when they are physically and mentally drained by illness.
Finally, the healthcare contracts don’t make any guarantee that you will receive any particular treatment. If your doctor says you need it and the insurance company says you don’t, you lose. Please go to court. If you have a pre-existing condition and the insurance company says that something you need to have treated is due to that pre-existing condition (even if your doctor doesn’t), you lose. Please go to court.
All of the above justify why protection and true “insurance” must come up front, not after the fact.
The media consistently refer to Tim Pawlenty as a “moderate” republican. Those of us who live in Minnesota know he’s anything but. He’s polished, politically gifted, and affable, but really quite far right. He’s been terrible for the state of Minnesota. He has no qualms whatever about sacrificing what’s best for his constituents for his own political ends.
Aloha! odh