White House And GOP Enter The Conversation About Race
This could be bit of a seminal moment. The idea that Obama’s race is driving the most fervent opposition to Obama and his agenda — what some are calling the elephant in the room — is suddenly front and center today, with both the White House and the Republican National Committee entering the conversation about it.
The White House edged into it gingerly, with senior communications adviser Anita Dunn downplaying the role of race in some comments buried in today’s Washington Post piece about the administration’s pushback against the right:
Dunn played down the role that race could have in fueling the rancor. “I think that is less a part of it than some other people might think,” she said. “If you look at the history of this country, you see that in times of great stress and change, there are people who are concerned, who are threatened, there are people who are scared.”
Meanwhile, Jimmy Carter’s stark suggestion yesterday that race is driving anti-Obama anger has provided an opening for RNC chair Michael Steele, who blamed Dems overall for floating the idea and insisted that Obama repudiate it:
“Characterizing Americans’ disapproval of President Obama’s policies as being based on race is an outrage and a troubling sign about the lengths Democrats will go to disparage all who disagree with them. Playing the race card shows that Democrats are willing to deal from the bottom of the deck. Our political system has no place for this type of rhetoric.
“As the leader of the Democratic Party President Obama should flatly reject efforts by those in his Party…to inject race into our civil discourse in ways that divide, not unite, Americans.”
Obama and his advisers have tended to discuss race only when necessary. So the foray into the subject by such a senior administration figure may mean the White House sees a need to distance itself from the idea that race is motivating the President’s angriest critics, a notion being floated by more and more mainstream pundits. Either way, the race conversation is now joined on a new level.
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Did anybody catch Morning Joe? It was all no-no-no there’s no racism here, move along. Maria Bartiromo practically shrieked she was so p***ed off.
I don’t think that anyone is arguing that everyone opposed to Obama’s policy is a racist. But racism is there, and Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh and others are using it to gin up fear and loathing.
And Jimmy Carter may bug the bejesus out of the White House, but he’s right.
Enjoined it is. Unavoidable at this point. To the degree that the WH can remain outside the conversation, it ought to.
The fact that Steele/RNC establishment DON’T want to talk about it means that we need to talk about it both substantively and politically. Imho, Obama should pick a date to hold a serious forum on race. Preferably in the Spring after HCR is done and signed.
Even if there is racism threaded into many of the right’s attacks — and I think there certainly is — it does the Obama crew no good to talk about it. This is actually an opportunity for Obama to do what he does best and position himself as a “happy medium” to shift the conversation in a different direction. The smart thing to say would be, “I understand that a lot of folks have expressed anxieties about some of the actions I’ve taken. I don’t think this has anything to do with my race, but more the general anxiety that people are feeling in this recession.”
Bartiromo is a complete dunce. Her argument was people called Bush a monkey too.
How do some of these people have jobs on T.V.? Seriously.
I should add that a handful of goobers with a chip on their shoulder shouldn’t be leading this debate. Obama needs to take charge of the issue, frame it as a positive discussion and put it on the backburner. A conversation on race STARTED by a lying scumbag in the House is NOT the way to go. It is a distraction from HCR and though it needs to happen, Obama needs to take charge of the issue, arrange a planned discussion for a later date. Okay, I think I got my point across
Carter is going to get kicked around and knows it. But I’m a very big fan of this guy and the level of integrity and courage he has shown in speaking the unpalatable and politically incorrect (as that is experienced by conservatives) is unique. As uncomfortable as this will be for the WH, it had to be said. Limbaugh yesterday was doing the worst sort of race-baiting and this has to be shoved front and center so that people see what that disgusting b*stard is up to.
Who really cares what Jimmy Carter said? I don’t think anyone listened to him when he was President. Why start now?
This presents an interesting issue for liberals to consider in how they conduct themselves.
As this blog itself evidences, liberals certainly have been injecting race and asserting that Obama’s opponents are motivated by racism. If it is true that the Obama administration is trying to diffuse and downplay these accusations, liberals will have to consider whether to keep pushing them.
If you do keep pushing these accusations of racism, do you think you are helping Obama? And if so do you think he secretly is happy the media is advancing this theme, and happy that his supporters keep making the accusations of racism?
I know what I think, but I’m quite curious what liberals have to say about this dilemma and what they should do.
If Limbaugh was race baiting then they need to isolate Limbaugh the race baiter and ask Republicans if they will continue to grovel at his feet and beg forgiveness every time they step out of line of their cherished king of Conservatism.
Mikey is in such A-Big-River-In-Africa! But I guess that’s part of the definition of a Cream-Filled-Chocolate-Cookie.
Ethan, I don’t think there’s any point. People cling to it. I believe that Joe Wilson is less racist than he was 20 years ago. But it’s still there. It’s subtle and insidious. Pointing it out to some people only makes them crazy, because it’s political correctness.
I think what’s confusing to a lot of conservatives is that they believe they are not racist, but they hate affirmative action and most forms of welfare. I think they believe entitlements and preferences are a giant giveaway to minorities and illegal aliens. To them, “Obamacare” the latest gift, with Obama playing Santa Claus for black people.
And that’s why they want their country back. With white people (the adults) minding the store.
Brad, the general anxiety felt during economic downturns invariably brings racism to the forefront in America. This stretches back at least as far as the 1870s and the passage of the Chinese Exclusion Act.
And if Lars Ulrich had jumped on the stage to regain some street cred as an ***, ya think Terry Moran asks Obama about it?
It’s quite clear that race hating and race baiting have been interjected into the health care debate, ie illegal immigrants, “you lie” Joe the Confederate Wilsom, Obama is a racist Beck and the Tea Baggers obsession with socialism, nazi boot camps and this is not my America, Huckabees “red lips” Van Jones statement and all the rest. Our president will try to tone down the dialogue while the rest of us debate the issue. We shouldn’t lose our focus on health care because of it.
If anyone hasn’t noticed, any time a race issue comes up, conservatives think it opens up a window for them to race bait.
When the Wright issue came up, conservatives drilled the racial tensions as long as it remained in the news.
The Gates incident allowed Beck and the conservative leader Limbaugh to race bait for a couple weeks.
Once again, the race baiting has begun. Both Drudge and Limbaugh pushed the story about black kids beating up a white student to stir up racial tensions.
I’ve got a theory here. Part of Obama’s image he was trying to push was being a uniter. When elections come around, all this racial tension, hatred for his policies, hatred for the man himself will be used by the right as evidence he cannot unite this country. They haven’t started pushing this theme yet. They’re still busy trying to polarize 50% of this country against him.
It appears some of you were answering the kinds of questions I raised even while I was typing. If I understand how liberals react to this, it is basically that Obama should stay out of the accusation game — either by being a bystander or playing the happy medium — while those outside the administration continue the attack.
That is as I expected and perfectly cynical. I was just reading on another thread some of Bernie’s theorizing about multi-pronged Republican propoganda permeating the media. Here again we have a perfect example of leftist propoganda being propogated to serve the WH’s interests, while ostensibly keeping Obama’s own hands clean.
Bravo! President Carter. How can anyone deny that race has not played a role in the distaste and vitriol for President Obama? Look @ the language coming from the extreme elements of the republican party. They’re not mad about his policies–they’re mad who’s pushing the policies. The birthers, truthers, Tea baggers all use explosive racial language and overtones to protest the president.
ps @greg Yooooourrr sssssiiiittttte iiiiisssss vvvveeeeeerrrrrryyyyyyy sssssslllllloooowww toooodaaaaaay.
maria batiromo on Morning Joe this morning (a bit paraphrased): “Obama’s approval ratings went from 70% to 50%, and you’re saying those 20% are racists?”
Seriously that’s your argument? How moronic could you possibly be? Who is saying that racists ever “approved” of President Obama?
OF course it’s about race. Jeez – I know it when I see it. I went to segregated schools until we finally integrated my first year of high school.
Of course that’s it.
Lamebaugh’s comment yesterday ought to be roundly criticisized by the Right but what do I hear from the folks of the right-wing persuasion on this blog? *crickets*. I think that says alot and apologies to anyone who DID distance themselves from it that I missed.
Michael Steele is one of the dumbest men to ever hold such a lofty position in a national political party, regardless of his race. What a doorknob!
qb
I wasn’t saying the left should carry the race torch for Obama, but some most certainly will, it’s hard to ignore. I think it could also be a strategy from the right to distract from the very real debate that needs to be going on in Washington.
I believe that Obama wants to unite the country, not divide it over racial issues. Some of us are not so magnanimous however. I believe the cynicism is on the right.
Sam Simple – you can say that again. And again.
He is one dumb person. He doesn’t lead anything – do you think the Republicans pay any attention to Michael Steele? I don’t think so.
Greg, aren’t ya sweet fanning the flame here ? WH source is going out of the way in downplaying the race card by squelching any such speculations and yet you have a 24 point headline stating the exact opposite. Did you get out of wrong side of the bed today ?
muh-muh-muh mike from Arlington:
“If anyone hasn’t noticed, any time a race issue comes up, conservatives think it opens up a window for them to race bait.”
Funny how you state that race just “comes up”.
It doesn’t “come up”…until a Liberal flings it.
BTW, Internet POTD:
“Dissent is the highest form of Racism”.
“He is one dumb person. He doesn’t lead anything – do you think the Republicans pay any attention to Michael Steele? I don’t think so.”
Was someone talking about racism?
quarterback:
“If you do keep pushing these accusations of racism, do you think you are helping Obama? And if so do you think he secretly is happy the media is advancing this theme, and happy that his supporters keep making the accusations of racism?
I know what I think, but I’m quite curious what liberals have to say about this dilemma and what they should do.”
If they didn’t howl “racism” at people who disagree with their childishly ridiculous notions, what other argument would they have?
They’d have to actually,y’know, like (shudder), THINK.
What are you, some kind of ****** or something?
Chuck said:
“Lamebaugh’s comment yesterday ought to be roundly criticisized by the Right but what do I hear from the folks of the right-wing persuasion on this blog? *crickets*. I think that says alot and apologies to anyone who DID distance themselves from it that I missed.”
I explained it for you on the other thread. Feel free to enolighten yourself.
Liam:
Insert your canned Condereate Bilgeman rant here:
I don’t know how Lamebaugh feels that he is helping Republicans by being a racist. I actually believe that Americans care more about health reform and the economy right now. In fact, Americans care more about alot of other things besides race generally. Race probably rates waaay down the list in their everyday concerns.
Pretty much guaranteed to backfire for the right wing.
Matt, exactly about the Money Dummy. Glad you picked up that quote, what’s she doing talking about money and markets if she can’t figure out basic statistics? Everything she said this morning was idiotic, and she sat in her chair and glowered when she wasn’t shreiking her inanities. She doesn’t like Obama, she doesn’t like his policies, and she’s paranoid, angry and stupid enough to believe that people must think she’s a racist because of it.
Kathleen and Mike…I also saw Maria Bartiromo on Morning Joe and I agree..she is truly a dolt! The same woman who asked a 44 year old Congressman why he didn’t have Medicare…duh…said proof of the lack of racism was Obama’s original 70% approval rating. But Maria that leaves 30%. I do not suggest that all or even the majority of those 30% base their opinions on race but it’s obvious that a significant portion are basing some of their resentment on race.
NOBODY with eyes and ears can deny that race has been an ugly subcurrent in all the birther, and other right wing gatherings. There has been too many “witch doctors” “wstermelons” “go back to Kenya Muslim” etc signs floated around. Some elected leaders like Virginia Fox of N.C. have even been racist on the House Floor. And so I believe it’s obvious there is SOME racism involved.
The question remains one of perspective or how many racists and how effective are they? And the major problem is that intensity has been mistaken for raw numbers. So 75,000 or so showed up this past weekend. Many if not most of those folks are tinged with racism…just look at the signs. However 75,000 represent less than a smidge of 1% of our populace despite Fox News trying to convince everyone this is a widespread grassroots protest.
And so how many racists are there really amongst us?
And just how racist are they. I live in Florida and like many of you around the country know a broad spectrum of racists…from the overt Nbomb dropping morons…to the more subtle..we want our Confederate Flag because of our “heritage”..ignoring the fact that flag represents traitorous treason and rebellion and a Civil War that was fought to keep black people enslaved.
I don’t think progressives or anybody else would argue that ALL protest against the Obama administration is racist. There is plenty of ideological difference and fear based on the suffering from the Bush economic meltdown to motivate this frenzied response. But anybody who doesn’t concede there is a significant, if not substantial portion of this motivated by racism is simply refusing to open their eyes. How much…what % is racially motivated? And even among those with SOME racial animus…other reasons may be driving their response…but please…Spooks, witch Doctors with bones through their nose..and the entire birther movement…give me a break if you don’t believe that is not racism at work I’ve got some stock in the Sunshine Skyway Bridge to see you.
Jodie and Tena you two are amazing of couse it’s about race how disgusting. I’m white ,if that matters, My opposition to some of the Presidents ideas comes from difference in politics not color. How dare you assume it is about race. It is in my humble oppinion hurtful to both sides when race is always injected into the argument. It’s as if that’s the ace, nobody can top this one. Stop your Racial hatred for a time and try to see that all differences don’t all come from color.
ChuckinDenton – I agree with you. And I also know that since the Right has been pushing this envelope, it’s become steadily more apparent to most Americans and this will not end well for the racists – I can guarantee that.
How many times are they going to insist on re-fighting this? Every time they lose the fight worse.
Kathleen said:
“She doesn’t like Obama, she doesn’t like his policies, and she’s paranoid, angry and stupid enough to believe that people must think she’s a racist because of it.”
Gosh, now why would anyone in today’s America be concerned that their opposition to Obama’s policies might be labeled racist? That’s a toughy.
“How dare you assume it is about race. It”
You are known by the company you keep just like your mother told you.
You associate with racists, that what’s you get. If you are a Tea Bagger, a Town Haller or a Maller then you are associating with racists.
Let’s sit back and watch two disgusting trolls debate each other on race. Popcorn anyone?
Anyone who claims that there isn’t a racial aspect to this – go read yippie’s comments on the open thread 3 posts down.
Go read what you’re compadres are saying about proudly flying the confederate flag and what that means.
The Mississippi Freedom Riders were at the Mall on Saturday. If you don’t want to be seen with racists, I suggest to avoid hanging out with them.
QB, there’s enough blame to go around, but the racism spewing from your side is poisoning the well for people who are simply stupid like Bartiromo. I’m not saying that all those who oppose Obama’s policies are stupid, btw, but she is.
# Bilgeman | September 12th, 2009 at 11:52 am
End the illegal occupation of Confederate Land and begone from us. We are not of the same nation, and judging from the slurs posted and allowed here yesterday, nor should we be. They would then be free to sneer their contempt at us to their heart’s content from within the borders of whatever lands that remain to them.
………………………..
That makes you a foreigner, and you have often said that foreigners should mind their own business, and not have any say in what happens in the USA.
Since you see yourself as a Confederate, and since the Confederate States’ Secession from The United States Of America, was done because your Confederacy wanted to continue to own Black People, as Slaves, that was the ultimate in Racist Behavior.
Since you have now revealed that you consider yourself a citizen of the Confederacy, that makes you both a non-American(A Foreigner) and an unrepentant racist.
Oh Please! Michael Steele should try to expalin why his party doesn’t have any blacks in it. Why the majority of the people at these rallies are WHITE and, why he himself has to get a second signature on checks when this didn’t happen to all the white guys who held the job he now holds! As an African American I can tell you that we find him to be a real embarrassment! He’s a one man minstral show! Nice try! Blame the fact that some are racist on the person they’re racist toward. We all know that all whites aren’t racists but, don’t try to tell us that when we do see it, it’s our fault!
“What are you, some kind of ****** or something?”
Apparently, I am someone who keeps trying to talk sense to the senseless, Bilgeman. I’m not sure what the word is for such a person, but probably not complimentary, yet, I keep doing it.
This kerfuffle is following the standard leftie play book. Start hurling accusations of racism at anything your opponents say. Wilson said Obama is lying? Racist! Obviously a slavery-loving, whip-cracking, hate monger.
Then, the next day start expressing “amazement” that these racists want to “bring up” race and start another civil war.
Just unbelievably idiotic, not to mention dishonest and immoral.
“it’s our fault!”
That’s always the way when someone finally calls them on it – they always project right back and start spewing blame everywhere but where it belongs. Because they know.
I’ve always wondered about the logic behind the Confederate Flag. It’s basically the flag of the LOSING SIDE! Why would you want to celebrate that YOUR SIDE LOST? I gues it’s like those same Republcan idiots who keep saying that we’ve got the best health care in the world, ignoring the fact that WE’RE NUMBER 37!
No Wilson is a racist because he’s a racist – he’s a member of the Sons of the Confederacy. He was a strong advocate for continuing to fly the Confederate flag. He thought Thurmond should have continued to deny his biracial daughter because it was something to be ashamed of.
Wilson is a racist – end of story.
@ Unfortunate
I take you at your word that your disagreements with Obama are based on ideological differences not racial.
But do you actually deny that many folks have based their opinions based on his race and that it’s difficult if not impossible to lead an administration if opposition is based on something as fundemental as color or race…btw..what is Obama..half white or half black?
I have no doubt that if Hillary had been elected and taken on health care the Fox News idiots would be advancing gender based discrimination and Lambaugh would be back with his “feminazis”
Racism and chauvinism are Unfortunate…but racists and chauvinists are the vermin of our society…the best way to rid ourselves of vermin is to shine a light on them!
Thank you for your courage Jimmy Carter…you have certainly earned my respect for shining a light on the vermin sporting witch doctors, watermelons, and monkeys…even if it makes BOTH sides uncomfortable.
THE HEALTH CARE REFORM SELL OUT.
FROM MAX BAUCUS.(As in: Balk US)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/15/AR2009091502978_pf.html
Excerpt:
“The Democratic senator from Oregon has been the Energizer Bunny of health reform for the past five years. This week he lobbed a big rhetorical stink bomb. Wyden warned publicly that the package being crafted by the Senate Finance Committee would cost lower-income Americans too much and give many people too little choice of insurance plans.
Under the Finance Committee proposal, individuals would be required to obtain insurance. But to drive down the cost of the package, Montana Democrat Max Baucus’s Gang of Six — a gang that pointedly does not include Wyden — trimmed the size of the subsidies available for those who could not afford insurance on their own.
Now, a family earning three times the poverty level — $66,150 for a family of four — would have to pay up to 13 percent of their income for health insurance. And that’s just the premiums — not counting deductibles, co-payments and out-of-pocket expenses.
“I don’t know very many working-class families who you can look in the eyes and say: ‘Do you have that kind of money in your checking account?’ — because they don’t,” Wyden told me.”
Kathleen,
I find many of your comments interesting and, at least some of the time, of value, although we obviously occupy opposing sides of an ideological chasm. (Don’t let anyone here put you down for that.)
But I see no racism “spewing” from my side. I see lots of hysterical cries of racism when none was in evidence. We’ll never agree on that, but, for example, liberals tarred Wilson as a racist. Saying Obama lied had no racial connotation; sorry, it just didn’t. Bill and Hillary Clinton said just as bad or worse things about Obama.
Your side also spies racism in the sentiment of conservatives who want to “take back” the country from liberals. Please go back and review the history of the last two campaign cycels and the slogans (offician and unofficial) of the Democratic party and essentially all its major candidates. Look up the “Take Back America” conferences and organization. Look up the books published by folks like Howard Dean, Paul Begala.
The entire campaign message of Dems for eight years was to “take back” the country from illegitimate, Repupblican usurpers. You are seeing racism that isn’t there.
# roxsteady | September 16th, 2009 at 11:11 am
I’ve always wondered about the logic behind the Confederate Flag. It’s basically the flag of the LOSING SIDE! Why would you want to celebrate that YOUR SIDE LOST? I gues it’s like those same Republcan idiots who keep saying that we’ve got the best health care in the world, ignoring the fact that WE’RE NUMBER 37!
…………………………
It is not just the flag of the losing side.
It is the flag that stood, and still stands for EVIL. The Evil Of Slavery.
Anyone who wants to still wave a flag of the Slave Owners, is a racist, and EVIL.
Tena said: “Wilson is a racist – end of story.”
So you assert. How did he bring up race and inject it into the political debate?
Quarterback – ever heard of Willie Horton? Lee Atwater in 1988? I don’t believe everyone opposed to President Obama’s proposed policies is racist, but I do believe Joe Wilson from South Carolina is a racist! Until he says anything else to assuage me, I will continue to think that, and his membership in the Confederate fold is ample proof for me! -Kevo
I told you why Wilson has presented as a racist since he got into politics, but you want to ignore what I said – fine. No problem – I don’t expect you to do anything but argue because that’s why you’re here.
But if someone points out that someone is a member of the Sons of the Confederacy, fought to continue to fly the Confederate flag over the public buildings in his state and openly claimed that having a biracial daughter was a matter of shame -
What would you call it?
I can’t wait to see what you make up next.
kevo,
Yes, I’m quite familiar with the Willie Horton tale. I’m aware that Al Gore’s campaign brought up Horton to argue that Dukakis was soft on crime. (Gore is a racist, then?) The Bush campaign later picked up the issue and ran an ad that showed prisoners going in and out of a revolving door (actually depicting a disproportionately white prison population). And Bush was immediately attacked on the ridiculous ground of racism.
That has what to do with all this?
So you believe Joe Wilson is a racist. What has that to do with anything? He didn’t bring up race. Your side did. You concede that opposition to Obama’s policies isn’t racist. So why is it relevant to the debate that you think Wilson is a racist?
I must agree with Tena about Joe Wilson being a racist. You simply cannot argue to fly the Confederate flag and NOT be a racist. At minimum you are celebrating a flag that reminds 15% of our population they were once slaves and people not only fought to keep them enslaved but are still PROUD they did so…and that is the rub Mr. Wilson.
I live in the South and am basically proud and would be the first to point out that there is as much racism in South Boston Mass as here in Florida…however rationalizing flying the Stars and Bars is for idiots. It is certainly a part of our heritage…as are lynchings…cowardly goobers running around with sheets over their heads…pointy of course to fit the shape of their heads…
Kathleen pointed out that Wilson is probably not as racist now as he was 20 years ago..perhaps his pointy head is beginning to round off a bit…but if you support your state flying a Confederate Flag over the capital…then you are not only a racist…you are a traitor to the United States…so please stop with ANY talk of patriotism or love of country!
Obama and the Dems are in charge. They need to lead the discussion and pass meaningful legislation. Right now they are responding and passing resolutions of disapproval.
Do you think that Independents will believe such accusations of racism? Aren’t most Independents white?
“Eighty-eight percent (88%) of Republicans reject the notion that most of the opponents are racist. So do 78% of voters not affiliated with either major party. However, just 39% of Democrats share that view. Twenty-two percent (22%) of those in the president’s party say that most of the opposition to his plan comes from racists, and another 39% are not sure.”
All you are doing is preaching to the choir and further alienating the opposition. Maybe this will help fundraising, but it sure won’t help to pass legislation. Epic waste of time and counter-productive on the part of the left.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/september_2009/12_say_most_opponents_of_obama_health_care_plan_are_racist
“I’m aware that Al Gore’s campaign brought up Horton to argue that Dukakis was soft on crime.”
Where did you get the idea that Gore introduced the Willie Horton ad? That wasn’t Gore for heaven’s sake. George Bush’s campaign ran the Willie Horton ad.
I take it back. We shouldn’t have a discussion on race. If the trolls here are any indication, the Right Wing (Bilge, QB, sbj, etc) simply aren’t emotionally mature enough.
You know I just might find myself in agreement with Super Patriot SBJ. Except for the link to Rasmussen doesn’t help him any.
I do miss those days when he called me a phony and a child.
Gore brought up Horton in a primary debate in 1988. Then Republican oppo research followed up.
“Epic waste of time and counter-productive on the part of the left.”
Says the side that spent the entire month of August wasting the country’s time on things like: Obama was born in Kenya; Obama is a Muslim; Obama is going to kill granny.
[rolls eyes]
Sorry, Tena, I think you’re trying to change the issue again. You think Joe Wilson is a racist. Fine, nothing anyone says or shows you would ever change your mind about that. You think lots of people are racists for what lots of people think are flimsy reasons.
But you were saying that the right brought up race and wants to “fight that battle” again — essentially implying that conservative brought up race to start another civil war. That’s ridiculous. Liberals like you started crying racism when nothing about race was mentioned.
You also said:
“You are known by the company you keep just like your mother told you.
You associate with racists, that what’s you get. If you are a Tea Bagger, a Town Haller or a Maller then you are associating with racists.”
By this standard, Obama is a racist and terrorist and communist, and he thinks the U.S. brought 9/11 on itself.
So I would say you are taking a position you probably didn’t consider very carefully.
Poor tena doesn’t seem to understand which party is in control…
I don’t mind alienating Racists.
That is how degenerate scum should be treated. They must be exposed, and treated as social outcasts.
Those who still wave the flag of Slave Owners, must be quarantined from the public square, because otherwise, they will pass on their vile allegiance to a Slave Owning era, and region, to future generations.
I am not surprised that our Resident Log Cabin Republican urges us to cater to the racists and bigots in society.
After all that is how he conducts himself, by supporting the party that treats him like a subhuman, because of his sexual orientation.
Uncle Toms alway want others to behave like they do.
Ethan – Co-sign. There’s no meaningful discussion here (thanks to Greg’s framing), especially with openly racist trolls like qb, bilge. They are here simply to stir $hit and many here are falling for it.
sbj – I agree that the President and the dems should pass meaningful legislation and screw what the goopers and the media say.
“By this standard, Obama is a racist and terrorist and communist, and he thinks the U.S. brought 9/11 on itself. ”
I said I coudln’t wait to see what you made up next, and you went right for 9-11.
Good show – go collect your $5 for bringing it up.
“but if you support your state flying a Confederate Flag over the capital…then you are not only a racist…you are a traitor to the United States…so please stop with ANY talk of patriotism or love of country”
The flag issue is one I claim no particular expertise on. I’m not from the south. But I’ve talked about it or heard about it from friends and people I respect on both sides of the issues. Some say what you said, and others say the opposite and have reasoned grounds for it. And some who clearly aren’t racists don’t agree with you. For me, that’s enough to say I think your categorical statement unfounded.
But, again, the fact that you all are confident that Wilson is a racist is really beside the point.
QB, thank you for the compliment. I guess it’s a glass half-empty/half-full situation in a lot of ways. Some see racism where there is none, or it’s so subliminal it’s not worth it to make an issue of it. Others “spew” it, mostly the worst-of-the-worst. And I include Limbaugh and Glenn Beck in this group.
Is there such a thing as innocuous racism vs. evil racism? Isn’t it okay for the black community to take extra pride in Obama, or for liberals like me to think his heritage is a bonus, not a negative? In terms of blacks, I think their treating him like a favorite son is no different than when the Irish-Americans and Catholics gave JFK extra love, or money and energy from Greek-Americans came pouring in for Dukakis, or when a Jewish friend of mine didn’t take her Gore-Lieberman sticker off her car until she traded it in.
We could list the racist slights or the wrongheaded jumping to conclusions all day long. Sometimes it feels like we’re all stoned or drunk sitting around deconstructing every little detail. It doesn’t change the fact that racism, the big stuff and all the little slings and arrows, is worse for the minorities who experience it. And we are a ways away from it not being a factor.
Tena,
You might want to go read up on the Willie Horton affair. You clearly don’t know the facts, including the fact that the Bush campaign picked up the issue from Gore’s primary campaign. What a surprise. Bush’s ad had no racial tinge at all. It’s a fact you can go verify for yourself.
There is just one National Flag.
Those that support the flying of the Flag of The Confederacy, are declaring that the really do not hold allegiance to the Stars and Stripes, even those nitwits who keep screaming about having the pledge of allegiance recited in all schools.
They want the pledge of allegiance to the Stars and Stripes recited by schoolchildren, at the same time that they want the flag of Slave Owning Traitors flown in their home states.
Joe Wilson is one of those people.
Liam:
“Those who still wave the flag of Slave Owners, must be quarantined from the public square, because otherwise, they will pass on their vile allegiance to a Slave Owning era, and region, to future generations.”
Really?
I wouldn’t want to bruise your nugget with, like FACTS, or anything, but from 1781 to 1865, it was the Stars and Stripes that was the flag of slaveowners,
INCLUDING in places like Delaware,Maryland,
Kentucky and Missouri, that were slave states that did not secede, as well as certain parishes in Southern Louisiana that were Union occupied from 1862 onward.
You really SHOULD go and read the Emancipation Proclamation a little more closely.
The Stars and Bars was only the flag of slaveowners, (among others), for 4 years.
So, Liam, me old Yankee buddy,by what you use for logic, (ahem), everywhere you see someone carrying the Stars and Stripes, there’s a pro-slavery racist underneath it.
andrewsullivan.com
Calling Out Race-Baiting
Dreher whacks Limbaugh; Goldblog whacks Drudge. Conor echoes. Dreher reveals the conscience of a real conservative:
Look, I think it’s important to talk about black male violence, or at least as important as it is to talk about any other important social trend. I don’t think we should be squeamish about discussing it in a responsible and fair-minded way, despite what the politically correct say. But good grief, Limbaugh is up to something wicked. He’s plainly trying to rally white conservatives into thinking that now that we have a black president, blacks are rising up to attack white kids! Christ have mercy, what is wrong with these people?
I won’t have anything to do with it, not even tangentially, which is why I took down the post. I can’t see this as anything other than Limbaugh deliberately trying to whip up racial fear and loathing of the president. This goes far, far beyond tough criticism of Obama. Does that man Limbaugh have any idea what rough beast he’s calling forth?
If you find some others on the right willing to stand up to this evil, let me know.
Last sentence in above comment was Andrew Sullivan’s.
# Bilgeman | September 12th, 2009 at 11:52 am
End the illegal occupation of Confederate Land and begone from us. We are not of the same nation, and judging from the slurs posted and allowed here yesterday, nor should we be. They would then be free to sneer their contempt at us to their heart’s content from within the borders of whatever lands that remain to them.
………………………..
That makes you a foreigner, and you have often said that foreigners should mind their own business, and not have any say in what happens in the USA.
Since you see yourself as a Confederate, and since the Confederate States’ Secession from The United States Of America, was done because your Confederacy wanted to continue to own Black People, as Slaves, that was the ultimate in Racist Behavior.
Since you have now revealed that you consider yourself a citizen of the Confederacy, that makes you both a non-American(A Foreigner) and an unrepentant racist.
You are the one who said that foreigners should mind their own business, and keep out of American affairs.
Since you are a self declared foreigner, then mind your own business. By your own rules, you are not allowed to discuss what happens in the USA
Kathleen Hussein in Maine –
“Last sentence in above comment was Andrew Sullivan’s.”
I used to excoriate Sully because of his original stand on the war in Iraq, and because he is such a strange creature: an openly gay Catholic conservative – I have trouble making that compute. But he has definitely been the most reasonable and conscience-stricken voice out there on the conservative ride on the SS Crazy straight to Wild-Eyed Island.
I’ve learned to love Andrew Sullivan.
I’m sorry to see the public policy debate take this turn. I think we’d all like for race to be less, rather than more, important – and ideally to get to the point where the census box you check is “human race”.
It is wrong to impugn a person on the basis of race. It is wrong to prohibit criticism of a person on the basis of race.
I believe the focus on race – by both sides of the political spectrum, and for political advantage – is polarizing, and only serves to delay the day when the “content of character” is what matters.
I believe each person should be judged on their individual achievements and actions.
I disagree with Obama (and with many of the posters here) about a number of public policy issues. But I disagree because I believe that in the aggregate, other public policies will provide a better life for Americans.
Polarization works both ways, and is hard to undo. I would urge restraint all around.
@ QB
You’ve honestly admitted that not living in the South you don’t completely understand the “Stars and Bars” debate. Here in Florida…a multicultural state with a large population of “crackers” known as rednecks in other parts of the country we are continually fighting this debate as the flying of the flag is an embarrassment to the rest of us.
You said QB “others say the opposite and have reasoned grounds for it.”
I hope you’ll enlighten me about their “reasoned grounds” for it. I am not trying to be snarky here.
I have asked many of my “cracker” friends why they support the flag and it always comes down to heritage and PRIDE. How can you be anymore proud of a battle flag that flew in the hopes of keeping 15% of our population enslaved than you are of lynchings or the KKK. Why not hang ropes from trees…oops shouldn’t have said that should I…since the most ardent crackers have done exactly that in some cases. Just north of Tampa they frightened a black family from a very nice $300,000 home.
But back to the reality of the flag debate. I respect your approach QB and so I’m truly interested in ANY reasonable grounds for flying the stars and bars.
@freehold: “I disagree with Obama (and with many of the posters here) about a number of public policy issues. But I disagree because I believe that in the aggregate, other public policies will provide a better life for Americans.”
Racist!
Ha ha – well put.
“I have asked many of my “cracker” friends why they support the flag and it always comes down to heritage and PRIDE.”
Do y’all hear the Germans whining about getting beat in WWII, and wondering why they can’t fly the flag of the Third Reich?
It was a civil war – we fought ourselves and the people in the south who talk about it like it was the Americans landing on Iwo Jima, are really deeply confused. Why do you want to constantly relive a war in which Americans killed each other and how csn anyone in this day and time want to defend what the south was fighting for – to keep the institution of slavery?
And still y’all refuse to face up to how that looks to everyone else and what that says about y’all.
I love the south with all my heart – goddamn this country would be nothing culturally without the south. I would love to cure what ails the south – the ignorance that keeps it back and in poverty; the endless damn resentment against 90% of the rest of America that makes the south so vulnerable to politicians who stoke that resentment.
It is to weep.
rukidding,
“But back to the reality of the flag debate. I respect your approach QB and so I’m truly interested in ANY reasonable grounds for flying the stars and bars.”
I appreciate the question and would answer it if I could do it any justice, but I really couldn’t. Let’s put it this way, I went to a very prominent law school that was (it will surprise few) riven by racial and other controversies at the time. I sat one day with number of friends and acquaintences, two of whom were proudly from the deep south and I knew well enough to know they had and have no racist bone in their bodies. Others in the group were liberal Yankees who had opinions about the south, the war, Robert E Lee, etc., that were . . . strong to say the least.
As you can imagine, the discussion was intense. I mostly listened, but I was quite impressed at the time that my southern friends had quite a thoughtful and factually supported defense of the “stars and bars.” That was the best exposition I ever heard.
Unfortunately, it was a long time ago, and the best I could say is that they knew a lot I didn’t know about different variants and uses of the flags, their historical signficance, and the like. Hopelessly nonspecific, I know, but that’s the perspective I have.
At some point in the public debates over that issue, I think some on the pro side eventually started to say, it just isn’t worth it any more, because no matter how good our faith is, some people just won’t ever understand. But, as I said, I don’t claim any great insight except that I’ve heard both sides from people I respect.
sbj-
re: Wilson censure- The Democrats are actually capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time.
Tena-
Re: Sullivan-I agree absolutely with you. I don’t agree with everything he says (nor do I with some liberal bloggers *horrors*), but he makes alot of sense.
Kathleen,
Re Sullivan and Dreher, Dreher I have not followed lately that much. He is marginally “conservative” I suppose. But in this case I think he does go off the deep end.
I’ve read a fairly extensive transcript of the controverted comments by Rush. It is typical Rush satire, easily recognizeable if you’ve listened to him over time. He was “turning about” the very same kinds of accusations habitually made against himself and conservative politicians, particularly about race matters.
It may or may not be positive or “good” commentary in some sense, but it is a bit much for anyone to say it is “evil” and “calling forth” the “rough beast” of racism and lynching — at least anyone who was not equally critical on the innumerable occasions of the past when liberals and liberal media made the accusations he is parodying and ridiculing about conservatives. Just off the top of my head, for example, I can easily recall the outlandish accusations against George Bush after Katrina. Or how about the NAACP ad in Texas against Bush that equated him to a lyncher? This stuff goes on all the time. Hate crimes have been routinely blamed on Rush, Bush, etc.
He is ridiculing those accusations and trying to show double standards are at play. Anyone here who is upset about it needs to have been equally upset when the shoe was on the other foot.
Tena,,,yes I too love much about the south and you have captured the part that is not so lovable…
“It is to weep”
Quarterback – you speak from a privileged position. I too would feel privileged if every malady facing our nation could be easily relegated in my mind as the fault of liberals or Al Gore or our black president! Once again, remember Lee Atwater and his protege Karl Rove? When you can honestly engage the debate, I will listen! -Kevo
As far as the Willie Horton episode goes – I forgot that Gore brought it up first – you’re right about that.
I should go read up I suppose, to be 100% accurate. But quite honestly, I don’t much think you, quarterback, should be throwing stones cause that is one huge glass house you live in.
But I will admit I was in error – without reserve.
@chuckie: “The Democrats are actually capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time.”
Too bad there’s no proof of that!
Tena, hope you don’t mind my edit: >>>I love the south with all my heart – goddamn this country would be nothing culturally without [African-American culture] in the south.<<<
“Tena,,,yes I too love much about the south and you have captured the part that is not so lovable…”
I am southern. Thoroughly southern. I never went to school with African American until high school. When I was 11, in 6th grade, I was obsessed with Scarlett O’Hara, read the stupid book 8 times, memorized parts of it, was full of grievance for the loss of that “beautiful way of life” – I was 11. I grew out of it – by the time I was 12.
kevo,
If you knew anything else about me or where I came from, you would know how laughable is your claim that I speak from a position of privilege. But it’s funny you say it. It reminds of the many other times liberals like yourself made the same “accusation” to my face only to be embarrassed by the exposure of their complete ignorance. In fact, I have rarely ever encountered a hard-core liberal like those of you here who did not speak from a position of infinitely greater privilege than me. It is just comical that you all like to pull that card out when all else fails, only to see it backfire as well.
In any event, you of course completely ignored my response, signalling that, indeed, you didn’t know what you were talking about.
Ethan – the entire damn culture is African American – are you kidding? Of course that’s what it means. And where would the rest of the country be without it?
If the south seceded, the north would be begging us to let their guitar players in so they could sell their souls to the devil – which you can do only at the Crossroad of Highway 61.
Quarterback – if you’ve been paying attention to any of the other opinions here, you would not be calling me a liberal. I’ve eaten many a liberal for breakfast, and I’ve lived with family, friends and community that would plant fist on chin for your erroneous assumption! You are not a serious observer, your predisposed views won’t allow you to be! -Kevo
Tena, yup
Ethan – well, when – liberals go off on wishing the South would secede, I always say that’s fine, just leave me the Dirty South.
Haha. Yeah, we get Nola, Austin, ATL; they get Baton Rouge, Houston, and the rest. Somthin’ like that sounds doable to me
H-Town – are you effing kidding me? They’ll have to go through Chamillionaire, Trae, Slim Thug, Bun B, Paul Wall, SCARFACE, and the ever multiplying Mike Jones (if you don’t get it – sorry) if they want Houston.
No way in hell.
My kingdom (such as it is) for an edit and reply function on this blog…
Clarification on my earlier post stating that race is far down the list of concerns Americans have right now. For white Americans its probably further down than for African or Hispanic-Americans or any who have historically suffered discrimination based upon race.
Ethan – they can have Amarillo and everything east of Tyler.
tena “I am southern. Thoroughly southern.”
Frilly underthings?
sbj-
Well, you missed my point. Which is, that claims Democrats ought to be doing x instead of y when Congress obviously does both, as well as z,a,b, etc. just proves the bankruptcy of that argument.
The fact that you don’t see that belies prejudices on your part-not in reality. Although, I will agree there is a question of degree in some cases vis-a-vis impeachment trials versus this.
@chuck: “You missed my point. Which is, that claims Democrats ought to be doing x instead of y when Congress obviously does both.”
Oh, I didn’t miss it, I ignored it. Because you ignored my initial point:
“Do you think that Independents will believe such accusations of racism? Aren’t most Independents white?
All you are doing is preaching to the choir and further alienating the opposition. Maybe this will help fundraising, but it sure won’t help to pass legislation. Epic waste of time and counter-productive on the part of the left.”
Of course I understand that congress can do more than one thing at a time. However, I’m not sure I understand what else they have been doing in the House other than “disapproving” of such and such.
Bernie – I’ll leave that to your imagination.
sbj-
Too bad it appears to be a case of politics in the end for what should have been a unanimous vote for the entire House. Apparently censuring an outside entity such as Move On is easier than holding a member to standards that supposedly all are bound to.
Re; Indies and charges of racism- thats a different matter altogether than a breach of decorum. Many will try and confuse the two.
Sorry is I missed your earlier point (I would love a reply function here….hint, hint)
Okay Tena, you drive a hard bargain. As long as they get stuck with Texas City, I’m happy.
I listen to President Jimmy Carter. I think he is one of the most honest and smartest politician we’ve ever had. If you don’t think the current situation is based on racism, then you haven’t seen the teabaggers’ signs nor listened to or heard about the comments of Limbaugh, Beck and Hannity. You have to be less than honest if you don’t think it’s racism.
Anyone who accuses others of racism just brings that acusation back on to themselves. Ad hominim attacks are evidence that they don’t have a valid argument and are trying to inject a ‘distraction’.
@Tena – consider it done.
Typically bright bit by Yglesias…
“Still, the hypersensitive to fictional allegations of racism highlights once again the basic outlook of the contemporary conservative movement on race. Actual racism against racial minorities is, according to conservatives, a trivial or non-existence problem. By contrast, anti-racism gone too far (often known as “political correctness”) is seen as a huge social problem against which one must always be on guard.”
I’ve previously recommended Nina Easton’s “Gang of Five” for it’s very good survey of five men who sit at the core of the conservative movement’s rise. She wrote this, one ought to note, before marrying a Republican strategist and becoming a regular on FOX. Ignore that recent history…the book is extremely worthwhile.
The reason I bring it up in this context is the chapter on Clint Bolick. What Yglesias describes above is, in very great part, a consequence of what Bolick has managed to do.
And, lucky you, in looking for a link for the book I’ve found the text on line…go to the chapter “White Male” for Bolick. But look at what else is here too. Kristol, Norquist, etc.
http://books.google.com/books?id=i078vP9ji7cC&pg=PA136&lpg=PA136&dq=gang+of+five+easton&source=bl&ots=uYjhSwvz4T&sig=P9AL4bf1vMTOx3dGpBwfz7i16QI&hl=en&ei=sTSxStHaLobUtgPqzpzLCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false
kevo,
My observational powers are just fine, which is why, for example, I was easily able to make you look foolish for bringing up Wilie Horton. I’ve read enough of your posts to know you are exactly as I said — a hard-core liberal. Your claims to the contrary are silly.
You’re not only an ideological liberal, but you also follow the typical liberal psychological and rhetorical pattern. You make ill-considered statements, which you are unable to defend, and then resort to personal put downs.
You are a leftist and a fraudulent, phony “Republican.”
Mr. Q – you know not what you speak, but you are entitled to your ill-founded opinion. I’ve been a Republican for over the past 30+ years – even the ill-tempered likes of you haven’t driven me from my party. An honest Republican though would at least be concerned with how Mr. Bush betrayed conservatism by establishing programs and policy that have driven up our national deficits, and an honest Reagan Republican, of which I belong, will accept that David Stockwell’s economic policies set in motion the largest national deficits ever before in our history.
No, I am no liberal though you can relegate me to that status in the canyons of your own mind. You, my dear sir, are not conservative! -Kevo
It amazes me that so many know so much about the confederate flag and it’s orgin. I believe at the end of the civil war it was decided that slavery in this country (USA)is against the law. For nearly a centry and a half we have tolerated racism. That is a discussion for another time.
Now let us take a look at the real issue here. There are to many American citizens that are suffereing because they can not afford healthcare. This happens while the insurance companies are getting rich on the back of American people. I wonder what you would say if you knew that these companies were owned by by people with foriegn interest. I feel that no one should die because some weakth A-Hole feels that he needs to get his multi-million dollar bonus. So until the Republican party can put a health plan on the table that will give all Americans the right to Healthcare there should not be any debate. Ask yourself if it was my family member what would I want them to have as citizen of this great country.
For the last 65 years the the Conservative party has been lead by ignorant fundamentalist (RACIST)that at every turn will do or say something keep the American people divided. If you choose to be a part of that so be it. Just to let you all know for all who anything about history Rome fell because of these practices and it will fall again if we do not change. People like Limbaugh and Wilson are just big cry babies when they can have their way or be heard.When pay attention to them they feel justified in their beliefs. But if saw two men arguing in the middle of the street which would you call the fool
kevo,
I’ve read plenty of your posts. Your contentions and positoins are very reliably liberal. If you have any Republican roots, they are in the Rockefeller/Nixon strain of big government, social liberalism. Let’s not pretend otherwise.
“An honest Republican though would at least be concerned with how Mr. Bush betrayed conservatism by establishing programs and policy that have driven up our national deficits, and an honest Reagan Republican, of which I belong, will accept that David Stockwell’s economic policies set in motion the largest national deficits ever before in our history.”
You betray your confusion — or is this intentional? — with this statement. I’ve never said George Bush was a model of sound conservative statecraft. Far from it, I don’t think he was at all — ever — conservative in many important ways and have been very critical of him.
The difference is that I actually have some grasp on what conservatism is, and what Reagan stood for, and why Bush departed from them. When you criticize Bush for supposedly “betraying conservatism,” you mean he cut taxes, not that he launched new social programs and let spending continue to run wild. You are here regularly joining the chorus of liberals claiming that the Republican Party has moved far right into extreme conservatism, is rife with racism, etc. I wonder how it is that a true Reagan conservative would imagine that Reagan himself or any “true” and “honest” conservative would support socialized medicine and join in calling those who oppose it racists.
How is that that a “true” Reagan conservative reliably dredges up hoary tales like Willie Horton and slanders Lee Atwater, all of which have nothing to do with the issues before us?
No, Kevo, you are a fake, sock puppet “conservative” and “Republican,” and you aren’t fooling anyone.
Mr. Q – your anger is showing! -Kevo
kevo,
No, actually, it isn’t. But does it make you feel special being all snarky like that?
“Actual racism against racial minorities is, according to conservatives, a trivial or non-existence problem.”
???????? Poorly written BS.