Obama Broadens Attack On Insurance Industry, Isolating It In Final Stretch
Obama’s weekly Youtube address is pretty striking: He attacks the insurance industry in the harshest terms yet, seeking to isolate it as a pariah in language that departs from his rhetoric of reconciliation and common ground and is even vaguely reminiscent of Theodore Roosevelt and FDR:
To isolate the insurance industry, Obama claims, perhaps debatably, that there’s a broad level of consensus about the way forward among many private-sector stakeholders and even among Democrats and Republicans, and paints the industry as the final obstacle to reform:
The insurance industry is rolling out the big guns and breaking open their massive war chest to marshal their forces for one last fight to save the status quo. They’re filling the airwaves with deceptive and dishonest ads. They’re flooding Capitol Hill with lobbyists and campaign contributions. And they’re funding studies designed to mislead the American people.
Of course, like clockwork, we’ve seen folks on cable television who know better, waving these industry-funded studies in the air. We’ve seen industry insiders –- and their apologists -– citing these studies as proof of claims that just aren’t true…Even the authors of one of these studies have now admitted publicly that the insurance companies actually asked them to do an incomplete job.
It’s smoke and mirrors. It’s bogus. And it’s all too familiar. Every time we get close to passing reform, the insurance companies produce these phony studies as a prescription and say, “Take one of these, and call us in a decade.” Well, not this time.
It’s worth noting that Obama’s assault carries echoes of his rhetoric in the closing stretch of the 2008 campaign. It’s a reminder of how suddenly the industry has reverted to form as public enemy number one of reform, how isolated the industry is compared to during the 1990s, and how useful it is as a foil at a time of serious, lingering divisions among Dems about the way forward.
This blog’s homepage is here. RSS feed here. Twitter feed here. Email me here.
What are you doing here on Saturday morning? This is getting to be a regular thing. It’s nice.
I’ll repeat – the insurance industry has done us a big favor by pissing off the White House. Now it’s open warfare – which is great.
Tena — thanks — I had to put something up to get amk to stop heckling me.
“I had to put something up to get amk to stop heckling me.”
O like you think this is going to make a difference?
LOL
Greg,
Thank you. I love it. I also believe in proactively pushing our positive and true narratives about this Prez’s agenda instead for ever reacting to the vile right wing and the corporate media attacks. Thank you again for posting this. Sorry to have dragged you here on a weekend.
Tena – what can I say ?
I share everybody’s concern about HCR. But it’s the second point the Prez made that may even concern me more.
It seems our country has come to the point where we really struggle confronting real problems. There is bi partisan agreement, even the tinfoil hats at the August town halls included, that our health care system is in shambles..yet…where is there any bi partisan effort to help? Olympia Snowe excepted. Did creating inane falsehoods like “death panels” “pulling the plug on Grandma” really add to the debate.
As a progressive I’m obviously biased and freely confess my biases. But in the spirit of “you can have your opinions but not your facts…I would love some of our righties..SBJ,QB et al to tell me how this horrible problem in governance is not almost totally the fault of the Repubs?
Let me begin the debate with a simple fact…
Sen Jim DeMint wading into HCR without even the pretense of discussing ANYTHING actually related to the issue and simply saying…if the Repubs can win…it could be Obama’s waterloo…the Repubs could gain bigtime in the midterms…all this said with NO reference to ANY issue in the debate…simple partisan posturing..sadly without any care about the real suffering going on in our nation…sadly without even addressing HCR.
And so righties…find me a link to a quote from a Democratic Senator so blatantly partisan…on any issue…with such total disregard to the welfare of the nation as to be virtually treasonous. Or you can take a pass and move the debate along by simply trying to argue DeMint is a total outlier..an exception to the Repub response…which of course will unleash Tena, Liam, and Bernie with myriad quotes from other ELECTED REPUB LEADERS that also completely ignore the real problem in favor of simple partisan warfare. And righties I’m not talking about Beck, Limbaugh, Fox joke or any of that…I’m simply referring to elected Repubs..like Grassley..Boehner..Mitch “I got my bypass in a socialized hospital but hate socialism” McConnell.
“And so righties…find me a link to a quote from a Democratic Senator so blatantly partisan…on any issue…with such total disregard to the welfare of the nation as to be virtually treasonous.”
Good luck with that, rukidding. They won’t – I can tell you right now, they will not admit it.
“Tena – what can I say ?”
I loves ya both so I’m not getting any further involved.
“.Mitch “I got my bypass in a socialized hospital but hate socialism” McConnell.”
I remember too well when the GOP was talking medical malpractice caps, when Bush was still pretzeldent. I recall the Republicans pushing for that had all sued for damages themselves, at least once.
They get Hypocrisy vaccinations, apparently. They just don’t care.
And OT – talk about hypocrisy – the only thing crazier than the media spending a day on the boy who wasn’t in the balloon is the alternative media spending the next 3 days talking about the media talking about the boy who wasn’t in the balloon.
When has the media ever acted differently? Floyd Collins in his cave in Kentucky; Baby Jessica in the well; the siege of Waco – god we couldn’t get away from that for the whole time it was going on.
OJ’s car chase? Kurt Cobain’s suicide – the media IS a circus.
The President has opened an unprecedented front in the fight of HCR with this speech. I’m not sure how much the “pure” left will really appreciate the political risks he is taking with this gambit. I am sure there will be lot of poutrage diaries at dkos and FDL accusing him of not going far enough.
And the repubs seem to have forgetten that the opposition also has a role in a country’s governance. Shrub is the fountainhead of my way or high way mentality now prevalent in gop.
“I’m not sure how much the “pure” left will really appreciate the political risks he is taking with this gambit. I am sure there will be lot of poutrage diaries at dkos and FDL accusing him of not going far enough.
[weaksicklylaughter] o hahahahaha –
The left will never be happy. The left doesn’t know how to be happy. When the right scores, they gloat. When we are on track, we complain and fight with each other.
Mr. Sargent:
“I had to put something up to get amk to stop heckling me.”
You could enforce your Discussion and Submission Policy against him. He’s certainly posted enough of his gratuitous hate to merit a muzzle.
BTW, Mr. Sargent, who are you insured with, just out of curiosity?
Are you personally happy with your coverage?
In fact – if Congress passed single payer next week, I can guarantee you that Glenn Greenwald and Jane Hamsher and Arianna Huffington would be madder than hell about it for some reason and they’d go on about it for the next 6 months.
Tena – They’re already going at it at dkos FP. Kneecap your best-bet candidate, shoot yourself in the foot in the process. Same old, same old whiny left.
The only people in danger of getting muzzled are the trolls because if the commenting community complains about y’all enough, you just might get kicked out.
Happy?
amk – I’m through banging my head on my keyboard over this c*r*a*p.
IF Kos and Jane and Glenn and the rest don’t stop this they will manage to lose us the majority and mess up things further.
They are the ones who need re-education camps.
bilge – stop being a typical whiny repug. If you can’t take it, then don’t dish it out or better yet, scram.
“They are the ones who need re-education camps.”
I agree. If they don’t get their pony, then Obama is bush. Jeez….
…but he’s still going to make us buy the overpriced private insurance project.
amk “I don’t want any birthday cake unless it has a rose on it!”
“# B. Mull | October 17th, 2009 at 11:42 am
…but he’s still going to make us buy the overpriced private insurance project.
”
And you know this because?
I personally don’t care to hear any complaining from anyone who lives in a blue state about what kind of a reform bill we get. Most of y’all were more than willing to let red state residents be left in limbo with their access to health care coverage left to the state. A bunch of y’all thought that was awesome politics.
Y’all don’t one thing to say that I want to hear.
@Tena…”Good luck with that, rukidding. They won’t – I can tell you right now, they will not admit it.”
Well so far that has been prophetic.:-)
“When has the media ever acted differently? Floyd Collins in his cave in Kentucky; Baby Jessica in the well; the siege of Waco – god we couldn’t get away from that for the whole time it was going on.”
Ouch! As a retired journalist that one hurts. lol Although on one hand I must admit it takes the sting out of retirement. It just gets draining to have to pander to the audience and if not for ratings..then the corporate folks who really pull the strings and meddle in the reporting.
We are in the midst of a hotly contested Mayoral race here in St. Petersburg FL. It’s not supposed to be partisan but everybody knows which candidate is Repub and which is Dem. The Times..which has enjoyed an excellent reputation as a “progressive” newspaper has not only endorsed a creationist/homophobe who wrote a letter to our school board inferring teaching evolution is what led to Hitler and Columbine..but has gone over the top in their criticism of the Dem candidate..a female who they describe as abrasive and come up just shy of using the B word. But they NEVER once challenge her substantively, because they cant. In fact they admit she is a bright, workaholic, totally informed on the issues..ohhh but she asked such hard questions when she served on council she hurt city staffers feelings.
This reminds me of a national reaction to another female who was substantively qualified…so let’s attack her style. She is now the Secy of State and the female Dem Mayoral candidate is leading in the polls by 5% despite the virtual non stop onslaught of biased coverage from the Times.
OMG I’m about to be overwhelmed by a huge rush of optimism!!!
“When has the media ever acted differently? Floyd Collins in his cave in Kentucky; Baby Jessica in the well; the siege of Waco – god we couldn’t get away from that for the whole time it was going on.”
You forgot to mention the Lindbergh baby.
“the Lindbergh baby.”:
True, I did.
oddjob – I also left out the week long media circus in Dallas over whether or not Tom Landry was going to be fired after Jerry Jones bought the Cowboys. They were literally interrupting scheduled programming for a week every time Jones or Landry took a deep breath.
“OMG I’m about to be overwhelmed by a huge rush of optimism!!!”
LOL! Welcome to my world. I don’t belong on the left – I am far too optimistic.
You know, the media isn’t exactly to blame for all of that, rukidding. You might as well just blame us humans. We like that kind of thing – we like stories about what other humans have gotten into. P.T. Barnum didn’t get rich for nuttin.
@Tena…well I’m glad we are BOTH optimistic. On a political level I take your point about the left being far too gloomy…perhaps it’s that many progressives are always looking to make the world a better place and can’t accept that is a very incremental process.
Still I’d rather be on the left looking for even more success than on the right so freaking paranoid I believe in torture and wasting so many of our young lives and treasure in stupid unnecessary invasions fueled by that paranoia and dark view of the world.
rukidding = I was born liberal. I’ve been liberal my whole life and women are more prone to stay liberal or become even more radical as they get older than men, I’ve been told at some time or other and it kind of follows my experience.
The right couldn’t be more wrong. And it’s vicious.
“many progressives are always looking to make the world a better place and can’t accept that is a very incremental process. ”
It’s also a product of the fact that the left is pretty well educated and intellectuals are almost always gloomy. I gave up cynicism – it’s all about the ennui and I’m not predisposed to be jaded.
re: media circus. See Balloon Boy.
I am all for HCR, God knows we need it. I do worry about the cost. Not so much the final cost – but the transition from the private insurance system that we have now to the government system that we’ll eventually move to. Once we’re there it likely won’t be so bad – but the decade it takes to get there will probably be costly.
“but the decade it takes to get there will probably be costly.”
I think in order to really make an educated guess about that, one needs to look at what happened in those countries that did this years ago.
All the dire predictions that have been thrown out there about health care reform and/or government health care, have largely proven to be red herrings and myths. Britain didn’t fall apart – the economy improved, actually, right afterwards because they were relying on a very expensive emergency hospital system – and that’s what has been happening here. France didn’t collapse – they have the number 1 rated health care system on earth. Germany, Switzerland, Australia – they think the opponents of health care reform over here are nuts because their systems work well and more cheaply by far than ours does.
Is it not obvious that Big Pharma is charging Americans 6 times more for the same drugs as they charge the citizens of other countries simply because they can?
GOPoperatives continue to dishonestly and deceptively spout that they cannot support a public option because they want to keep costs down for the American people! Really? But they know that only a public option can bring about true reform and control the “out of control” medical costs and premiums crippling people and jobs, making it harder and harder to get by.
The reason that GOP always say Gov’t is the problem is because when you have men/women in power who do Nothing but say no or complain, like the GOP — goverment is a problem! And so it is a self-fulliling prophecy. As long as the GOP are in power or in control, the goverment will be a do nothing, problematic government, which will do nothing for Average Americans. Like Pres. Obama has stated, stop complaining, grab a mop and help clean up what you messed up. We must remember, this is Bush & the GOP’s recession. They had the power for 8 years and did nothing to uplift this country, only to rape it from Main Street, to add it to Wall Street. The GOP does not even like to raise the Minimum Wage! They care nothing if you are making it. People we must wake up now!
Just visiting: You are quite right to “worry about the cost”. Especially since all the current legislation is piddly relative to Medicare’s $38 Trillion in unfunded liabilities. Anybody else notice how President Obama, even today, doesn’t tell us how bad things really are? It would seem healthcare is an important enough crisis for us to trust him and embrace his “solutions”, but not to worry about the true, devastating severity of our plight.
Please, join me in getting informed on the truth of our nation’s fiscal position. Otherwise, how will “the decade it takes to get there” not be the undoing of us all.
“is piddly relative to Medicare’s $38 Trillion in unfunded liabilities. A”
I’ve seen this posted in comments all over the tubes. This is the new rightwing talking point.
It’s repeated verbatim over and over and that tells me that it’s not the whole story.
Tena, You continue to doubt GAO & CBO’s unfunded liabilities calculations, but want to use when possible for support of HCR efforts. Help me out?
First,PursueTruth, let’s get the threshold question out of the way: Where did this come from and why is it suddenly all over the place?
@Tena,
I don’t disagree with you at all. I just think that the transition from our ‘private insurance’ to the public one will be a bit painful – but there is no way around that. Our current insurance system is basically a sucker’s bet.
I don’t think our economy will collapse – far from it, in the end we’ll be stronger than before – the current system is a huge drain & is inefficient. However, don’t fool yourself thinking it will painless. As that industry transitions – big companies will go away.
@Angelight – I really don’t care who’s fault the recession is. What I care about is that the ongoing fiscal management continues to weaken the dollar. That causes commodities to go up -and leads to inflation. It is not all Obama’s doing, but he & congress have had a big hand in it, as had the Fed. It is time to start raising interest rates. There are some tough pills that need to be swallowed – and the longer they wait, the harder it will be. There is no easy way out of this – and politically it will not be easy to do what needs to be done.
just visiting – I would agree on the pain if we went to single payer in one fell swoop. I don’t see it though, if we aren’t and we aren’t.
I mean, I get that insurance companies are just about the biggest investors on the planet and there is no way to take all that money out of the markets at one time – that is impossible, in my view.
But that isn’t what we’re doing. In fact, we don’t know what we’re going to be doing, yet.
“It is time to start raising interest rates”
It’s past time. I totally agree with you about this – totally.
What is the incentive for banks to loan that money they’re sitting on if they can’t make any money off of it?
Pursue Truth
You cannot just look at the projected Medicare unfunded liabilities with out realizing in part how we got there.
The passage of medicare Part D in 2003 was completely unfunded and left alot to be desired in dealing with the cost of pharmaceuticals for Medicare Part D enrolees. The passage of this bill is to blame for at least 30% of the unfunded liabilities projected over the next 30 years. Here’s one reason why it passed and the same reasons why it doesn’t work out too well for the taxpayers.
“By the design of the program, the federal government is not permitted to negotiate prices of drugs with the drug companies, as federal agencies do in other programs. The Veterans Administration, which is allowed to negotiate drug prices and establish a formulary, pays 58% less for drugs, on average, than Medicare Part D.[34] For example, Medicare pays $785 for a year’s supply of Lipitor (atorvastatin), while the VA pays $520. Medicare pays $1,485 for Zocor, while the VA pays $127.
Former Congressman Billy Tauzin, R-La., who steered the bill through the House, retired soon after and took a $2 million a year job as president of Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America (PhRMA), the main industry lobbying group. Medicare boss Thomas Scully, who threatened to fire Medicare Chief Actuary Richard Foster if he reported how much the bill would actually cost, was negotiating for a new job as a pharmaceutical lobbyist as the bill was working through Congress.[35][36] A total of 14 congressional aides quit their jobs to work for the drug and medical lobbies immediately after the bill’s passage.”
Tena, thank-you thank-you thank-you for asking. I had about written this blog off. The numbers come from the GAO and CBO, have been getting published for at least years, and have been summarily ignored, by all but a few.
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d08912t.pdf on page 9 indicates $54T in total unfunded liabilities, of which I’m told $38T is medicare. I’m still trying to confirm the medicare component and could use some help.
As to why it’s “suddenly all over the place”, perhaps former GAO comptroller David Walker’s multiple years of trying to educate the nation up on the topic (after finding DC politicians weren’t willing to sacrifice themselves for being the messenger) are finally starting to take hold.
Imsinca, Thanks to you too for responding, and your info. I’ve heard the drug benefit is $8T of Medicare’s $38T in unfunded liabilities? That anyone who voted for the bill would do something like this is completely disgusting. And when they’re now completely OK keeping us totally in the dark on the overwhelmingly bigger fiscal picture, I am at best skeptical of the current HCR approaches.
“Executive Summary
The self-identifying conservative Republicans who make up the base of the Republican Party stand a world apart from the rest of America, according to focus groups conducted by Democracy Corps. These base Republican voters dislike Barak Obama to be sure – which is not very surprising as base Democrats had few positive things to say about George Bush – but these voters identify themselves as part of a ‘mocked’ minority with a set of shared beliefs and knowledge, and commitment to oppose Obama that sets them apart from the majority in the country. They believe Obama is ruthlessly advancing a ‘secret agenda’ to bankrupt the United States and dramatically expand government control to an extent nothing short of socialism. They overwhelmingly view a successful Obama presidency as the destruction of this country’s founding principles and are committed to seeing the president fail.
Key Findings
Instead of focusing on these intense ideological divisions, the press and elites continue to look for a racial element that drives these voters’ beliefs – but they need to get over it. Conducted on the heels of Joe Wilson’s incendiary comments at the president’s joint session address, we gave these groups of older, white Republican base voters in Georgia full opportunity to bring race into their discussion – but it did not ever become a central element, and indeed, was almost beside the point…
http://www.gqrr.com/index.php?ID=2398
“On a conference call with reporters just now, Democracy Corps’ James Carville, Stan Greenberg and Karl Agne went over their focus group study of Republican base voters and their worldview that President Obama is out to destroy the country — and the pressure this puts on Republican voters to make no compromises with the Obama administration…” http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/10/democracy-corps-gop-voters-think-obama-is-destroying-america-thus-gop-leaders-cant-compromise.php#more
@Pursuetruth…we get and respect your concerns over the unfunded liabilites but quite frankly I have grown numb to numbers in billions and trillions…they really don’t mean anything unless you put them in perspective.
Nobel prize winning (and yes he deserved it) economist Paul Krugman often does exactly that expressing these unfunded liabilities and other debt we have run up with the stimulus as a % of GDP.
In other words if my monthly mortgage is $10,000 but I earn 2 million dollars a year, the large expense of the mortgage is irrelevant but if it’s only $1,000 but I earn $15,000 then problems begin to arise.
There is plenty of waste still left to cut…for example all that incredibly wasteful spending by the right on foreign invasions to solve a policing problem not a military problem…what is it…I think we’re at approximately 5 BILLION PER MONTH in Afghanistan alone and apparently getting ready to add to that figure.
And so I ask if you are consistent Plaintruth? Were you just as concerned when the Cheney administration took all the war costs off the books?
“Also, I couldn’t help but notice that Liz Cheney’s ad targets Olbermann, Matthews, and Schultz, but seems to have left out one high-profile MSNBC host: Rachel Maddow. Indeed, Rachel has invited Liz Cheney onto her show many, many times, and yet, Cheney has declined every opportunity.
To borrow a phrase, why doesn’t Liz Cheney want to talk substance? Why doesn’t she want to debate the issues?”
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/ (10:05 AM post)
Re Benen’s post above…
The “what are they scared of?” narrative is just propaganda/spin, of course. But that Liz Cheney and her people have decided to avoid an appearance with Maddow is interesting.
There are two possible motivations here, it seems to me. First, Cheney will undoubtedly have a very combative interview with someone who’s smart, informed and won’t let many empty or false assertions get past her. Cheney’s people may well have concluded that such a confrontation may hold too much danger for her.
The other possibility is that they wish to avoid any identification between Maddow’s same-sexx relationship and that of Liz’s sister Mary, concentration upon which might upset a lot of rightwing voters/activists.
“. But that Liz Cheney and her people have decided to avoid an appearance with Maddow is interesting. ”
yeah, because if Rachel Maddow has demonstrating anything, it’s her absolute fearlessness about interviewing absolutely anyone. It’s her best feature -= nobody prepares like Rachel and she loves doing it.
“As to why it’s “suddenly all over the place”, perhaps former GAO comptroller David Walker’s multiple years of trying to educate the nation up on the topic (after finding DC politicians weren’t willing to sacrifice themselves for being the messenger) are finally starting to take hold.”
Aw gee – ya really think? Somehow I kind of doubt that, but ok.
Rachel rocks! K.O. can be more entertaining but Rachel may be the best interviewer on TV today. Lizard brain better avoid that showdown or she’ll have her butt handed to here…Rachel will force her stick to to facts not paranoid hypothetical BS…facts…you know like who said…”We’ll be greeted as liberators”!!!
“but Rachel may be the best interviewer on TV today. ”
O I don’t think there’s any question about that =- nobody does their homework like Rachel. Nobody asks the tough questions and that’s all she asks.
What I find funny about this video is the fact that Pres. Obama lays it hard to the insurance companies…but of course doesn’t go after Big Pharma, who would normally standing side by side with the likes of AHIP.
Hmmmmmmmm, I wonder why that is…
Disappointing, and hilarious.
@rukidding: The numbers numbed me as well, and for years the GDP comparison kept me at bay. But then it occurred to me. Debt is paid by an income. And our nation’s GDP is NOT our government’s income. Our TAXES are our government’s income.
It wasn’t until I realized that $38 trillion is 14 times the size of our $2.7T Federal budget that I started to think. Wait a minute. This is pretty simple. We pay annual social security and income taxes to cover the annual Federal budget. So that means each of us owes 14 times our annual SS & income taxes TODAY, just to get back to even!
14 times my annual SS & income taxes is what put the billions and trillions in perspective for me. And that’s just for medicare. 14x doesn’t include social security or other unfunded liabilities. And it was 14x before our recent financial meltdown. All told, the GAO’s unfunded liabilities are at >20x. And I’m hearing the CBO is on the order of 50x?
To your question, truthfully, I didn’t know the war costs were off the books. But it’s not surprising considering all the other fiscal shenanigans we’ve winked at over the past 30+ years. But to keep things in perspective, the annual military costs you mention of $60B, are around one-tenth of one percent of the lower estimate of our unfunded liabilities of $54T.
14x, 20x, 50x? At what point does the rest of the world figure out we’re not coming back from this, and what happens then? At that point, what will be the state of HCR, or any other of our national priorities. It’s about time we stop drinking DC’s kool-aid.
“Disappointing, and hilarious.”
I’m really sick of people saying Obama sold out to Big Pharma with out any evidence of it at all.
If he got them to cooperate, and apparently he did, then that’s why you don’t hear from them. Maybe they have the sense to realize it’s not in their best interests to complain – look what is happening to insurance companies.
@pursuetruth…I DO accept your concern and realize you raise valid points…however I’m not really sure about all of your numbers…you mentioned an annual military budget of 60B…I didn’t say that was our annual military budget…that was the budget for Afghanistan ALONE…doesn’t take into consideration..Iraq…Germany..Japan..Korea..big weapons systems Congress has difficulty cutting..like the F22. I won’t pretend to be that well versed in our annual national budget but there is a LOT more in the military budget.
In addition…Glen Beck was on television crying a couple of days ago..longing for the good ole days…for once I’m with the Glenster…the good ole days like Ozzie & Harriet..and Beaver Cleaver..and Father Knows Best…when the wealthiest had a marginal tax rate around 70%…not the 35 or is it 38% we have now…when Corporations were accounting for 25% of our national income taxes not the 8% they now pay.
I do accept your concern however and do respect folks like you who are there to keep our eyes on the budget. I look at it more however as us having used up our margin of error..we can’t make another mistake like Bush…cut taxes for the wealthy dramatically..fight two wars without accounting for them…create a prescription drug program without funding it…or course the irony to all of this is that it’s the Repubs who are supposed to be fiscally conservative!
If you’re basic point is that we need to start paying closer attention and admit to the eventual need for tax increases I agree.
But again I remember how nice it was fiscally at least in the 50’s when the wealthy and corporations paid their fair share before Reagan/Bush trickle down economics created the economic malaise Obama is now trying to straighten out.
LIne in the sand…see latest two posts by Green and Kilgore… http://www.thedemocraticstrategist.org/
Thanks for the link Bernie. I agree with the concept entirely. Politically we should be focusing entirely on the vote for cloture and not get bogged down in the bills specifics.
Asking a Blue Dog if they support a strong P.O. is one thing…but asking them if they PLAN TO JOIN THE REPUBLICANS in a filibuster is another thing completely.
Easy to say no to the first…rather tough on constituent perceptions to say yes to the second.
Seriously Tena…all day long everyday? No wonder you have such a jaded view of reality vs the normal people. You need to get out, breathe some fresh air, spend some money, pay some taxes and enjoy life. Living every hour here is just not good for you.
@Tena
“I’m really sick of people saying Obama sold out to Big Pharma with out any evidence of it at all.”
You have to remember, ’sold out’ and ‘made a deal’ are two different things. There’s plenty of evidence out there to indicate he made some sort of deal – enough that you even reference it…
“If he got them to cooperate, and apparently he did, then that’s why you don’t hear from them.”
If you truely believe that Big Pharma didn’t require any coaxing, then…well, I know you’re a thoughtful poster and likely don’t think that.
But it should be clear, I don’t think Pres. Obama ’sold out’ to anyone. Sometimes deals have to be made, and I’m not so naive as to think Pres. Obama is able to change the way DC works overnight. Let’s face it, a deal or two HAD to be cut to have any chance at passing reform, and I think Pres. Obama knew that from the get go. I’m glad he did – because it looks like we’re going to make some major progress in fixing our broken system.
But that doesn’t mean that watching him bash (effectively, I might add) insurance companies while never mentioning big pharma isn’t still disappointing and hilarious to me.
President Obama is still on track to being one of the best Presidents in the history of this country. But nobody’s perfect.
Apropos of none of this, the Washington Post endorsed Creigh Deeds. I didn’t see that one coming.
“I didn’t see that one coming.”
That was sarcasm, right?
@rudkidding: my $60b was just annualizing your monthly $5b. I appreciate your perspective as there are likely many who feel the same, as that is exactly how those who should be in the know have positioned us. It’s looking though like we’ve been severely misled.
My basic point is not “the eventual need for tax increases”. That is multiple orders of magnitude short of addressing the problem. How do we cover 20x what we now pay annually, by slight tax increases? Taxes would have to increase 75% just to keep the 20x unfunded liabilities from getting bigger.
Wow. Reading the trustee report just now and it says Medicare is 65% unfunded! And that that number might be a little optimistic in that current law requires 38% in physician fee reductions over the next 6 years which is likely “an implausible result”. Wonder why that hasn’t been mentioned, and how it’s factored into current HCR approaches?
It’s important to know that the unfunded liabilities are driven by the baby boomers’ impact on medicare and social security. So, we’ve known about the cause of the problem since the 1950’s, but as a nation still don’t comprehend the problem or where we’re heading.
(Some minor questions: The calculation of corporations contributing 25% of taxes was likely before social security was put on budget? Did you know that the top 10% of tax returns pay 70% of taxes? Or that the bottom 50% of tax returns pay 3% of taxes? With that as background, what is the “wealthy’s fair share”? And wasn’t the current economic malaise driven by the housing bubble which started during the mid 90’s? For as much as Wall Street participated, what prevented their blatant mortgage industry greed prior to around 2002?)
Finally, President Obama is fighting back. Don’t worry Mr. President, you’ve got tons of bloggers behind you!! http://lawblog.legalmatch.com/2009/10/09/public-option-health-care-reform-voted-down-by-democratic-congress-anyone-else-see-the-problem-with-that-headline/
David Carr at the NY Times writes a piece on FOX v Obama. It strikes me as oddly detached and without much substance or perspective… http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/18/weekinreview/18davidcarr.html?ref=weekinreview
He restates the “don’t pick a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel” notion and suggests the administration would be better acting imperiously.
Besides wondering whether this fellow actually attends to FOX much at all (nothing to see here folks – move along now) I suspect he isn’t a particularly well informed student of politics.
The administration seems to be following a strategy of attempting to isolate and differentiate both FOX and Limbaugh (and likely, by extention, rightwing talk radio of the Beck/Limbaugh/Levin sort) from normal news gathering/analysis/commentary organizations, to point them out as being something different, as something less trustworthy.
I think the strategy is not only smart but critically important. The Greenburg/Carville link above verifies the extremism and out-of-the-loop nuttiness which has been fostered within that segment of the population which gets it’s ‘information’ from these two sources. This consequence isn’t accidental.
And here we get Murdoch on the matter… http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/oct/16/rupert-murdoch-obama-anti-business
“Speaking to shareholders, Murdoch declared that there was not enough “non-obsequious journalism” around.”
Indeed. Rupert’s media holdings are renowned for their non-obsequious coverage of the Bush administration over the last nine years and of Ronald Reagan, ongoing. This claim from Murdoch reminds me of an incident I witnessed in the Vancouver police station. A young man was escorted into a cell with one leg of his jeans torn cuff to knee and his calf was bleeding from a very nasty dog-bite. He’d broken into a building and had the misfortune of picking one run by the local Hell’s Angels. Their dog got him. Then they called up the police because they were uncomfortable with the idea of crime in their neighborhood.
Partial excerpt from Greenwald…
“There is a vital development — a new ruling from the British High Court — in a story about which I’ve written many times before: the extraordinary joint British/U.S. effort to cover up the brutal torture which Binyam Mohamed suffered at the hands of the CIA while in Pakistan and while he was “rendered” by the U.S. to various countries. While Mohamed, a British resident, was in American custody, the CIA told British intelligence agents exactly what was done to him, and those British agents recorded what they were told in various memos. Last year, the British High Court ruled that Mohamed — who was then at Guantanamo — had the right to obtain those documents from the British intelligence service in order to prove that statements he made to the CIA were the by-product of coercion.
The High Court’s original ruling in Mohamed’s favor contained seven paragraphs which described the torture to which Mohamed was subjected. It has been previously reported that those paragraphs contain descriptions of abuse so brutal that not even our own American media could dispute that it constitutes “torture”:
***The 25 lines edited out of the court papers contained details of how Mr Mohamed’s genitals were sliced with a scalpel and other torture methods so extreme that waterboarding, the controversial technique of simulated drowning, “is very far down the list of things they did,” the official said.”***
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/
I suppose Liz Cheney’s new “Keeping America Safe” organization could use that for a motto… “We support slicing Muslim testicles. It’s the American way” or some such.
Did anyone else watch Beck last night with his interview of doctors and doctors in training? I saw a bit and the only questions which came to mind were “from where were these people recruited and how?”
It turns out that I missed something which an alert reader at TPM caught (relevant to my questions).
“Back in July we brought you the story of Dr. David McKalip, the Tea Party movement anti-anti-reform activist who was caught circulating a racist email with a photo of loincloth wearing President Obama in the guise of a witch-doctor.
After we publicized the email, McKalip apologized, later said he was withdrawing from the public debate over health care and felt compelled to resign as the head of the local medical association.
So we were surprised when TPM Reader JG let us know that last night McKalip resurfaced as an expert on health care reform for none other than Glenn Beck at Beck’s town hall style meeting to discuss the horrors of reform.
If you don’t remember, here’s the photo McKalip sent around …” (for those who don’t want to check the following link, the illustration is Obama with bone through nose etc)
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2009/10/post_16.php#more?ref=fpblg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_IAN081P8I&feature=player_embedded
Alas David McKalip lives just a few blocks from me here in St. Peteersburg. He is a real piece of work and the posterboy for all that is wrong with the right.
As a respected surgeon you can’t simply dismiss him as ignorant as is so easily done with many of the teabaggers. He is basically an absolutist in the party of “I’ve got mine screw you”. He would make a liberterian look like a raving progressive and you’ve already posted the link that shows he is also a racist…probably from the standard white supremacist strain. If you go to a dictionary to look up selfish you will see picture of Dr. David McKalip. This man is regarded as a pariah in his own community by all except of course the Beck 9/12ers.
Anecdotal but true evidence. St. Petersburg has 133 neighborhood associations which simply grass roots liaisons to city government. They get things done like…help with crime control…neighborhood beautification projects..traffic issues…and some of them also act as social organizations so neighbors can meet and greet neighbors. Our neighborhood assn has been dormant for awhile and when I and several others tried to restart it McKalip was there to protest the idea saying, “Nobody is going to tell me the color I can paint my house”. The word ME/MY are McKalip’s favorites. I had to explain to the paranoid rightie that he was thinking of deed restricted communities…not neighborhood assns..or that perhaps he was confused by two of those 133 assns which had applied for and received “historical designations” which do carry certain restrictions, but not neighborhood assns. David McKalip is simply a pathetic man who has let his greed and paranoia drive him to delusion.
@rukidding… thanks for the intimate portrayal of the fellow. It reminds me of a particular individual who posts on this board, at least regards the “I hold allegiance to that set of people who are me” thing.
Gosh Bernie, I can’t imagine whom you are referring to.
Thanks for all the great links this morning. I’d like to try to catch some of the Glenn Beck Comedy Hour as well and am off in search of some video.
It is my belief that as our Tortuous past comes into light our Ms Cheney will become irrelevant as a serious contender for public office. There will be many moderates and independents who will be ashamed, perhaps more so than now, and will see her position as “Defender of Torture” (and Daddy), as a disqualifier. Just my prediction.
@pursuetruth You may be the only rightie on this site to debate with facts instead of ad hominem attacks and non sequitors. Kudos to you pt!!!
A few facts/observations in your post that I take issue with…your obervation…
“And wasn’t the current economic malaise driven by the housing bubble which started during the mid 90’s? For as much as Wall Street participated, what prevented their blatant mortgage industry greed prior to around 2002?”
You almost answer your own question with what prevented blatant mortgage greed before 2002? There was far more government over site…deregulation allowed lax underwriting on a massive scale of these mortgages…I work in real estate and the conflicts of interest between banks/appraisors/and brokers was obvious and harmful.
Deregulation championed by the ultimate pinhead Phil Gramm of Texas and as a progressive I’m saddened to say aided and abetted by Dems like Barney Frank.
You questioned…And wasn’t the current economic malaise driven by the housing bubble which started during the mid 90’s? …not really my friend…you might be watching too much Faux News…the corporatists always wish to blame the common man for their failures. What brought down our house of cards was a deadly duo of toxic devices created by the brains on Wall Street. First they BUNDLED these bad mortgages with lax underwriting into SubPrime investment products. That was bad enough but then for the clincher they multiplied the disaster exponentially by letting the Wall Street boys create the now infamous Credit Default Swaps with virtually no regulation or over site. In other words PT you come to me to sell me an investment product full of subprime mortgages and I ask “aren’t these by definition risky?”(a real life experience for me btw..thank goodness I didn’t bite) and you simply guide me to AIG or wherever and they “INSURE” my poor risky investment. Problem was of course without any regulation or over site AIG insured these with nothing more than PAPER…no collateral behind them. When the whole house of cards collapsed it was we the tax payer who had to cover AIG et al’s paper. If it was simply the original bad mortgages (and I’m not disagreeing with you PT..they should have had much stronger underwriting and appraisals behind them) this country would probably already be out of the woods economically and we wouldn’t have made our crisis a worldwide crisis thanks to subprime investment products and their accompanying CDS products.
Another of your observations offered in good faith which I would challenge…
“The calculation of corporations contributing 25% of taxes was likely before social security was put on budget?”
No, and the basic point PT is that corporations do NOT pay their fair share. When McCain said in that Prez debate that our corporate rate of 35% was harmful compared to the lower rates in countries like Ireland I wanted to reach through the screen and strangle him!!!
Either McCain is a complete ignorant idiot or just deceitful and manipulative(I’ll let others debate which)
NOMINAL tax rates have nothing to do with EFFECTIVE TAX RATES!! It’s not what you CLAIM to charge but what you actually receive…
http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/study-tallies-corporations-not-paying-income-tax/
“Two out of every three United States corporations paid no federal income taxes from 1998 through 2005, according to a report released Tuesday by the Government Accountability Office, the investigative arm of Congress.”
But I’ve saved your best question for last because it has been used to mislead our country for so long…and for the longest time the statistic bothered me as much as you until I actually thought out what it meant..
“Did you know that the top 10% of tax returns pay 70% of taxes? Or that the bottom 50% of tax returns pay 3% of taxes? With that as background, what is the “wealthy’s fair share”?”
Please permit me an egregiously hyperbolic hypothetical example..hyperbolic yes but I want to get the idea behind it across as quickly as possible…PT imagine a small nation of 10 people. 9 earn $10,000 a year..1 earns a million a year. The nation’s annual budget is 100,000 a year. 9 low earners pay $1 each in tax to support their government an effective rate of .0001%..the top earner is left to pay $99,991 an effective rate of 9% Of course that taxpayer would still be left with roughly $900,000. Would that be fair? And understand the mathematical error most make is thinking that once that top 10% are paying 100% of the taxes we are screwed because there’s no more to tax…but as you see in my admittedly hyperbolic example..in theory this is absolutely UNTRUE. There is plenty of money left to tax. The rich guy in my example has plenty left to pay even if his mythological nation’s annual budget tripled or quadrupled.
Pt I am not a proponent of a progressive tax or a flat tax…I am a proponent of a fair tax. Fair in my definition is that we pay according to what we TAKE. By that definition the top 10% were already underpaying as far back as 2001 where Wikipedia claimed the top 10% had 71% of the wealth…and so if they pay 70% they are getting off easy by 1%. But of course I hope without forcing me to google my arse off you will concede that the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy have exacerbated that shift dramatically since 2001.
As to the arguments from my Ayn Rand acolytes that we would kill Gordon Gecko’s good greed with higher marginal rates and we’d lose incentive…I ask you PT..if you are ambitious…would you rather earn 10 million at 70% leaving you with a paltry 3 million or earn $100,000 at 10% keeping $90,000? More importanly what did we learn from history…back in Glen Beck’s good ole days the marginal rate was 70% and the country hummed along just fine thank you! The wealthiest may have had fewer baubles and the multimillion dollar yacht manufactures may not have flourished but we did just fine thank you.
And for the argument all our wealthy will flee to another nation…what a real joke…I LOVE America but alas we have somehow accumulated some of the most selfish wealthy people (I know I’m painting with too broad a brush here..obviously there are some notable exceptions..but that’s just it..they are exceptions) in the history of our nation. We have the worst wealth distribution of all the so called “civilized” nations in the world…
http://neweconomist.blogs.com/new_economist/2005/11/wealth_inequali.html
“..the United States exhibits the highest degree of wealth concentration, with the largest shares of total wealth in the hand of the richest percentiles of the wealth distribution. The lowest values are found in, among others, Australia, Italy, Japan and Sweden, and intermediate values in Canada, France and the United Kingdom.”
And so PT since you’ve been kind enough to share some very legitimate concerns…let me share my most critical concern. The U.S. wealth distribution is the worst it has ever been since just prior to the Great Depression. Think it’s just a coincidence that the two greatest economic crashes have occurred at the times of greatest inequality in wealth distribution?
But worst of all look at the TREND!!! At some point if we keep letting the Repubs make the rich richer..while arguing over HCR and the basic necessities for the rest of us…pissing our money away on military adventurism so Cheney’s Haliburton and other rich arseholes can continue to get even wealthier…we are going to end up looking like Juan Peron’s Argentina…or modern day Mexico. But PT here is the question for you…at some point..if this trend continues..can you understand we’d end up with riots like Weimar Germany?
Jacob Weisburg in Newsweek
“Last week, when White House Communications Director Anita Dunn charged the Fox News Channel with right-wing bias, Fox responded the way it always does. It denied the accusation with a straight face while proceeding to confirm it with its coverage.
…
If you were watching Fox News Channel, you saw the familiar roster of platinum pundettes and anchor androids reciting the same soundbites: this was Obama’s version of Nixon’s enemies list, the rest of the news media is in Obama’s corner, Obama should get back to governing, and so on. On The O’Reilly Factor, Alan Colmes, the network’s weak, battered house liberal, mumbled semi-agreement while “Doctor” Monica Crowley and Bill O’Reilly lit up the scoreboard with these talking points.
Any news organization that took its responsibilities seriously would take pains to cover presidential criticism fairly. It would regard doing so as itself a test of integrity. At Fox, by contrast, complaints of unfairness prompt only hoots of derision and demands for “evidence” that, when presented, is brushed off and ignored.
…
Rather than in any way maturing, Fox has in recent months become more boisterous and demagogic. Fox sponsored as much as it covered the anti-Obama “tea parties” this summer. Its “fact checking” about the president’s health-care proposal is provided by Karl Rove. And weepy Glenn Beck has begun to exhibit a Strangelovean concern about government invading our bloodstream by vaccinating people for swine flu. With this misinformation campaign, Fox stands to become the first network to actively try to kill its viewers.
…
Whether the White House engages with Fox is a tactical political question. Whether we journalists continue to do so is an ethical one. By appearing on Fox, reporters validate its propaganda values and help to undermine the role of legitimate news organizations. Respectable journalists—I’m talking to you, Mara Liasson—should stop appearing on its programs. A boycott would make Ailes too happy, so let’s try just ignoring Fox, shall we? And no, I don’t want to come on The O’Reilly Factor to discuss it.”
http://www.newsweek.com/id/218192
@Greg or any statistician who can answer my technical question.
In our Mayor’s race one candidate leads the other 39%-34%
with a +- 4% margin of error. The local paper has called that a statistical dead heat. Many are wondering how a 5% lead with a 4% margin can be called a dead heat. Am I correct in assuming it means if the leader dropped by the entire 4% error margin and the second place candidate jumped up by that same 4% he would obviously then be 38-35 and so they can interpolate that to mean a statistical dead heat?
And in a journalistic followup..would you headline a 39-34 lead as a dead heat or even close race?
“President Obama is still on track to being one of the best Presidents in the history of this country. But nobody’s perfect.”
I totally agree with that. There has just been such an epidemic of complaining from the left on everything right from the start that I am breaking down under the weight of it.
Bernie:
It reminds me of a particular individual who posts on this board…
Who? How so?
Greg:
Obama claims, perhaps debatably…
Is this your gentle way of admitting that Obama is lying?
Imsinca said: “It is my belief that as our Tortuous past comes into light our Ms Cheney will become irrelevant as a serious contender for public office. There will be many moderates and independents who will be ashamed, perhaps more so than now, and will see her position as “Defender of Torture” (and Daddy), as a disqualifier. Just my prediction.”
Revelations such as the “saving civilized values through testicle-slashing” definitely change the equation on her future electoral hopes. Given that this claim is factual and that the final appeal fails, it seems like Ms Cheney may still hold a hopeful following among the neoconservative/warmonger camps and among some portion of the demographic Greenberg/Carville describe but it seems impossible to imagine how Liz might expand her voter base. Things aren’t that crazy, are they?
In response to some of pursuetruth’s numbers and assumptions based upon those numbers here’s a little reality check. He says the top 10% of earners pay 70% of taxes, true, but he neglects to put these number into
context. I have linked to a chart below so you can do your own math but here are a few comments regarding these numbers. These numbers are all based upon AGI (adjusted gross income).
1. The top 1% incomes rose 28% from 1999 to 2007 (increase of $116,681) on average per year.
1. The 50% threshold of income (above which 96% of all tax revenue is paid) rose 19% from 1999 to 2007 (increase of ($6,464) on average per year.
3. The top 1% earn 92% more than 50% of tax payers.
Also, based on the 2007 Census numbers 12.5% of all people in the US live below the poverty level.
Look at the chart yourselves, the disparity is eye opening. 50% of individuals or families earn less than $32,879 per year. And these numbers are from 2007, one wonders what changes will occur in 2008 and 2009.
Pursuetruth needs to pursue the truth in the real world.
http://www.ntu.org/main/page.php?PageID=6
“One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got into my pajamas I’ll never know.” Groucho Marx.
Well Mr. Marx,
It turns that K-Street, and the Wall St. Robber Barons funded the campaigns that enabled The Elephant to take not only your Pajamas, but the shirts off the backs of all working class, and poor people of America.
Newsweek’s Weisburg via amk…
“Whether the White House engages with Fox is a tactical political question. Whether we journalists continue to do so is an ethical one. By appearing on Fox, reporters validate its propaganda values and help to undermine the role of legitimate news organizations.”
He’s right. Undermining the role of legit news organizations is a fundamental goal of FOX and the related institutions which have sprung up (have been constructed or facilitated purposefully) over the last few decades. The irony, of course, is that they are forwarding a deeply relativist framing – that information sits in a context of political preferences and that therefore objectivity is a lie and a pretense. But they need to do that in order to set up and justify an alternate media regime (”We will change America through the media” as Gingrich put it).
There are real problems that do affect modern media coverage of political matters, but Murdoch, Scaife, Koch, Clear Channel etc have no intention of bringing about an improved media environment nor a more informed citizenry. And news people or political aspirants who citizens who do wish news organizations to function objectively and as a check on political power mis-used ought to refuse temptations from FOX to be aboard.
Ailes will continue as he’s done (effectively, I think) to put insignificant individuals (often physically unattractive or unfacile of mind and speech) up on the screen and labelled as “Democratic strategist” or some such but I think that folks ought to head in such a direction in order to further clarify what these operations are up to.
Rebranding America
Why President Obama deserves The Nobel Peace Prize.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/18/opinion/18bono.html?ref=opinion
Excerpt:
“In dangerous, clangorous times, the idea of America rings like a bell (see King, M. L., Jr., and Dylan, Bob). It hits a high note and sustains it without wearing on your nerves. (If only we all could.) This was the melody line of the Marshall Plan and it’s resonating again. Why? Because the world sees that America might just hold the keys to solving the three greatest threats we face on this planet: extreme poverty, extreme ideology and extreme climate change. The world senses that America, with renewed global support, might be better placed to defeat this axis of extremism with a new model of foreign policy.
It is a strangely unsettling feeling to realize that the largest Navy, the fastest Air Force, the fittest strike force, cannot fully protect us from the ghost that is terrorism …. Asymmetry is the key word from Kabul to Gaza …. Might is not right.”
Food for thought. Use the link to read the entire piece.
A Gwan Gwan Gwan Gwan!!1
TPM notes John Kyle statement from this morning…
“I’m not sure that it’s a fact that more and more people die because they don’t have health insurance.”
Yes, he is sure. He’s lying.
Another thought on the Liz Cheney ad suggesting Matthews, Shultz and Olbermann are afraid to debate Cheney…
They are all men. If I have Matalin’s strategy right then they will want to set up situations where Cheney (or Palin or perhaps Bachmann) can be portrayed as being bullied by men so as to push the notion Matalin suggested and hopefully sheer off women voters. And that matches her refusal to come onto Maddow’s show.
More expamples that we are headed toward a system that will be run by the government, not the private sector. The government does not need to be providing health care. If the government wants to help the health care situation they should help fund advancements and improving technolgies to make basic care even more affordable
Liz Cheney’s only claim to fame is that she is the daughter of a torture loving monster, who happened to have been the worst Vice President in the entire history of the USA.
Liz appears to have inherited her father’s unbridled Greed, and Cruelty genes.
Call her: Dickette Cheney.
Bernie
I believe the Palin, Cheney camp are that crazy, but I don’t believe they will be able to expand that base in any meaningful way to enable them to win a national election at least. I hope I’m right in this, otherwise we are headed in a very dangerous direction indeed.
Liam
Here’s another chart titled “Plutocracy Reborn” which pretty much says it all. And here is a quote referencing said chart from FDL’s Massacio.
“They weren’t satisfied with the normal returns from the ordinary business of the country, new businesses, new processes, education and growth for the benefit of all of us. No. They gutted the regulatory structures and the tax system, reaping a huge unearned windfall. They took the capital accumulated in their hands from the sweat of the workers and invested it in other countries, putting millions out of work. They changed the rules to let them import educated foreigners to drive down the wages of middle class Americans. They took all the profits themselves, increasing wealth inequality to pre-Depression levels, as this infuriating chart shows. They left nothing for the workers and the middle class. Anger is the least they can expect.”
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080630/extreme_inequality
@Insimca,
It is very sad what they have done to America. We have almost no manufacturing jobs left. All consumer electronics and almost all clothing and textiles have been eradicated, and they are not coming back. I hear all the promises of creating good paying new jobs in the green renewable energy sector, but there is nothing in place to stop the Robber Barons from outsourcing those manufacturing jobs either, once we get them up and running.
Can we use some common sense, for just a moment. College is not for everyone. Think back to high school days. There was always more kids in school, that just were not college material, than were. A lot of those kids were able to make a good living in the manufacturing sector. Not anymore. The Oligarchs have made sure of that.
They have killed the American Working class, and cooked it, to make soup to nurture China, India, and their own stock portfolios.
“Anger is the least they can expect.”
Yes and the worst is…perhaps rioting in the streets? Not yet but again look at the TREND of the wealth redistribution…the fact that Reagan/Bush trickle down policies that make the rich even wealthier at the expense of the middle class all the while they refuse to even COMPROMISE on basic necessities like HCR for the rest of us…look at the absolute arrogance and selfishness of the right…combine that with their mind numbing Cheney hubris…and the right is stirring a cauldron that eventually is going to boil over!!!
Ironically it is the right that better hope Obama can save the greedy b*&tards from themselves.
1
I know Liam, it’s hardly been the “Free Market” at work, more like the “Rigged Free Market” at work. Now I need to get back to work myself, free martket style. Have a good Sunday. My Angels didn’t fare too well in NY, maybe a change in climate will help, it’s beautiful here. We never give up until the last out.
@pursue truth
I’ve posted about the Medicare and Social Security liabilities a couple of times over the past few weeks. The Medicare hole is about 4X SS. Its big.
I think the most useful way to think about this is in terms of %GDP. The Fed tax take is about 20% of GPD (actually a little less, but close.) Its really remarkably flat over many, many years – despite tax rates going up and down and up and down.
If you look at the Medicare and SS projections that the government publishes, you can find it expressed in terms of %GDP. Its important to realize that the so-called trust funds for Medicare and Social Security are really just an accounting fiction – there are no trust funds.
Check out the Concord Coalition web side for a pretty good bipartisan discussion of all this.
I believe you are correct to conclude that it is not realistic to raise taxes enough to pay for this, although I think you will see significantly higher tax rates, well down into middle income ranges. Talk has already started about a Value Added Tax (VAT), which has the potential to raise a great deal of money.
If you look at the NTU table which Imsinca was kind enough to point out upthread, you will note that the top 1%, 5%, and 10% of taxpayers now pay a higher percentage of personal income tax than they did before the Bush tax cuts went into effect. This is in part due to the fact that all income tax payer got a tax cut, and in fact many more lower income taxpayers pay no income tax at all after the Bush tax cuts.
I think its a more fair, however, to consider income, SS, and Medicare tax together – they are all Federal taxes and the funds raised are entirely fungible. This reduces the fractional burden carried by the highest income taxpayers a bit, although they still carry a heavier share.
Some people on this blog have commented approvingly of marginal rates of 70, 90, or IIRC 100%. I’m not close to the literature, but I recall that there is a “greatest income to government” point, perhaps around 50% marginal rates.
For many its not about raising revenue to pay for government per se, but rather about an ideology that finds dramatically higher than average income distasteful or even evil. Obama commented during the campaign that he wanted to raise capital gains rate even though he admitted it would reduce revenue, for these reasons. Your mileage may vary here.
You ask somewhere upthread what will eventually happen. I think the outcome will be significantly higher taxes, higher interest rates, inflation – perhaps at very high rates, and eventually limitations on promised services. I think you will see more means testing for SS and Medicare (probably by making those payments taxable), and more broadly “cost saving measures” for Medicare. Think soft death panels with much better public relations.
The oft repeated promise the no taxes of any kind would be raised on those with less than $250K of income will be, I expect, “overtaken by events”.
Keep looking at the big picture numbers. I’ve argued here – I think totally unsuccessfully – for some time that however desirable, the planned and proposed spending is simply unsustainable.
Keep an eye on the Treasury bond market. The rates on even 30 year bonds are really quite remarkably low – which argues that longer term inflation expectations are still muted. It was Clinton, I recall, that jested that the wanted to come back in the next life as the bond market, because it was all powerful.
@freehold and pursuetruth…I just have to laugh that you are there to defend the very wealthy of our society at the expense of the middle class.
Worse still..it is hard for any of us who care about a strong middle class to even listen to you guys..where the hell were you when Bush was fighting TWO unneccessary UNFUNDED wars…tossing a bone to the seniors with his UNFUNDED prescription drug program.
right=hypocrisy
“es and the worst is…perhaps rioting in the streets? Not yet but again look at the TREND of the wealth redistribution”
We are overdue for a correction – politically and economically. The harder they try to stop the momentum of change, the more drastic the backlash is going to be.
If we reverse the economic trend, there probably will be trouble. The whole culture is poised to move forward in a new direction and it goes left. If they pull it back to the right at all, it’s going to bounce back eventually way far left.
DAmmit – if we don’t reverse the economic trend…
@rukidding
What makes you think I’m defending the very wealthy at the expense of the middle class?
Its the middle class, not the wealthy, who are going to have a problem when the promises of Medicare and SS can’t be met, and when their lives are destroyed by inflation. Its the aspiring middle class who are going to face confiscatory tax rates as they try to move into the middle class.
Money is fungible, The wars were no more or less unfunded than any other federal expenditure. I’d have rather seen it all on budget, but its all the same in the aggregate reporting. There are lots of problems with the way the Federal budget is reported and managed, and where liabilities are recognized or not. But the FACT is still there that the off-budget Medicare liability is about 40X what has been spent on the wars.
Deal with the numbers.
Since the Democrats have control of the House, and Senate, and Presidency, I suggest you feel free to go ahead and have them implement whatever tax rates you feel appropriate.
Of course, the Democrats are now the party of the rich, at least based on House representation, so you may get some push back.
NEW DELHI: The promise of a deal at Copenhagen seem to be turning into a pipedream as the US has refused to put down hard numbers for mitigation
under the second phase of Kyoto Protocol at the ongoing climate negotiations at Bangkok. EU too seems to be taking a deal-breaking condition saying, “environmental integrity” was central to the UN treaty and “equity” of different countries’ rights was just one element.
The negotiations at various levels seem to be grinding into a logjam with US determined not to sign on to the Kyoto Protocol. The US negotiators fought hard at different forums within the UN talks to block any progress on industrialized countries’ commitments to reduce emissions in the mid-term under the second phase of Kyoto Protocol.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/environment/global-warming/US-throws-spanner-into-climate-talks/articleshow/5079332.cms
The numbers truly are staggering. That is why the transition to a state-run healthcare system is imperitive. It may be not what is intended now, and you may wish to think otherwise, but it is the only system that is sustainable.
“If they pull it back to the right at all, it’s going to bounce back eventually way far left.”
Yes…and since I’m not a communist that concerns me as well…the pendulum has swung way too far to the wealthy.
What saddens me is that we did fine in the 50’s with that 70% marginal rate…and yes freehold money is fungible…and it can return from the wealthy just like it went to them…can you say New Deal.
We are not talking about folks going from earning a million a year to two million a year…that is peanuts on Wall Street…probably not even a good bonus by Goldman Sachs standards. Remember GS just reported profits in the Billions…wasn’t it the late Senator William Proxmire making fun of government waste saying a few million here and a few million here and pretty soon you have some real money. YES let’s get at government waste…something Obama has pledged to do…but the same line could be used on the blood sucking Wall Street bankers…simply change the first letter from m to b…a few billion here and a few billion there and pretty soon you have real money..which along with a stop in our military adventurism provides enough money to cover all these unfunded liabilities you worry about.
Guns or butter?…more tax cuts for the wealthy…more military adventures?….or a decent health care system…which do we want?
Here’s the Brooking Institute, this week …
Anyone who thinks that health care reform alone is going to close the massive current—and even larger projected—U.S. budget deficit is deluded. President Obama has pledged that health care reform will not make matters worse. But that isn’t good enough. There is no way to restore this nation to fiscal health without higher taxes—for the middle class as well as for the rich.
http://www.brookings.edu/opinions/2009/1013_revenue_aaron_sawhill.aspx
@Freehold…if you’re point is that there is going to be plenty of pain to go around including tax increases on the middle class I’m in agreement.
I’m middle class and I don’t quake at a tax increase once they make it fair and corporations pick up their share…
http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/study-tallies-corporations-not-paying-income-tax/
“Two out of every three United States corporations paid no federal income taxes from 1998 through 2005, according to a report released Tuesday by the Government Accountability Office, the investigative arm of Congress.”
We all know the Social Security reserve has been raided to help balance the budget and so what we are talking about is simply TAXES FICA is not truly targeted at SS/Medicare. I don’t mind paying some more when they address the horrid inequity where my $40,000 a year employees pay that 7.65% FICA on ALL their income…my cardiologist brother in law pays it on only the first $100,000 of his $750,000 leaving $650,000 free of that tax. Simply uncapping that would provide HOW much more in taxes?
As Warren Buffet pointed out % wise our taxes are not really progressive at all…he pays less than his secretary…he is a wealthy man who gets the unfairness of our present system.
@rukidding
Yea, I’m safely under Obama’s $250K limit myself
I hear you on corporate tax – it needs to be fair, and to be seen to be fair. I don’t have any special expertise there, but I think one needs to be careful about inadvertently lowering overall GDP growth, which I believe is the best hope we have overall to create the means to provide better opportunities and a better life for everyone. There is, as I understand, a good bit of research than suggests corporate taxes just get passed along to workers and consumers as lower wages and higher prices. There are some studies summarized here:
http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/printer/23489.html
but in a few minutes of googling, it sounds like this is not a well settled area.
On SS, as you may recall, it was sold as basically insurance, and although quite progressive vis-a-vis benefit/contribution ratio, it was for many years felt by advocates important to maintain some direct link between contribution and benefit. I.e, the most you would get back was $X, which you got from $Y contributions, so if you contributed $10Y and still got $X, it was transparently just another flavor of income tax.
Its already unlimited on Medicare tax. This link seems to be breaking down for SS under the pressure for more revenue, and I rather expect that to happen. (you make recall that John Edwards caught some flak for arranging income from his law practice so as to avoid paying the Medicare tax – legal, but sort of bad form given his campaign).
As I’m sure you also know, when tax rates go up, a lot of energy goes into tax avoidance and lobbying for loopholes, When the rates were 90 and 70%, there were a lot more loopholes, many of which went away as a deal when the rates were lowered. Not saying this is good or bad, just human nature, and to be expected again if rates go up a lot.
I expect the pressure to find more revenue is going to be intense, and I think we’ll get a VAT, because its easier to hide. Count on Congress to do the easiest thing.
I think the higher income folks will get hit hard. Some have frankly acted so egregiously irresponsibly as to invite a VERY heavy hand. Hubris. As Napoleon said about something else, “its worse than a crime, its a mistake”. But they may think the fix is in already.
But even if you go to 100% tax above, say a million a year, its just not that much money compared to what is needed. There just aren’t that many of those guys. And I suspect you brother in law will start playing golf a couple of days a week when he gets to 70% marginal rates
I’d be curious – you might ask him and let us know.
@Freehold
No I doubt my brother in law’s habits change significantly other than as you suggest…he’ll give more to his tax attorneys and work a little harder at tax avoidance. I take your point on that.
I also understand your point about the rich always stacking the deck to favor themselves and they’ll always be rich. I don’t even believe you are cynical for pointing that FACT out.
However on a macro scale I believe we are always adjusting and trying to determine what kind of society we wish for our nation. This recent debate on HCR with the corporatists at Faux joke manipulating pinhead protesters just saddens me…sickens me actually.
There will come the point however when the selfish wealthy of our country will have finally reached the limit. Coming up with BS like death panels…pulling the plug on grandma..unleashing the ENTIRE republican party trying to stop what any compassionate human being would call a human necessity..health care…is simply beyond the pale for me.
http://neweconomist.blogs.com/new_economist/2005/11/wealth_inequali.html
“..the United States exhibits the highest degree of wealth concentration, with the largest shares of total wealth in the hand of the richest percentiles of the wealth distribution. The lowest values are found in, among others, Australia, Italy, Japan and Sweden, and intermediate values in Canada, France and the United Kingdom.”
I’m back with Honest Abe who believed it was a government responsibility to help advance the “American Dream” of the middle class. Somewhere along the past 150 years the Repub party has lost their soul! I’m just waiting for the pendulum to swing back and I agree with Tena that IT IS swinging and so I’m actually pleased.
Freehold
I read and agree with the Brookings piece you linked. I think a Value Added Tax would help fund health care in a logical and even handed way and not place too much burden on the lower income levels at least. I also agree with ruk that some adjustments could be made to FICA, in particular the 2.9% that goes to Medicare. Either abandon the caps or at least raise the limits.
My greatest concern and frustration with all of this business of deficits and medicare running out of money etc. is that it is always the middle class and lower that feels the brunt and bears the burden of economic down turns.
My sense of logic, while I am by no means an economist, tells me that the best investments we can make in our country are ones that raise the income levels of the poor and the middle class.
When 50% of the taxpayers only pay 3.9% of income taxes, I don’t see, “gosh they’re not carrying their weight”, I see our country has failed in giving 50% of our people the access to the American dream they deserve. Investments in health care, education, technology, industry, alternative energy sources etc. should all be directed toward how the bottom half of our population can benefit and participate in a thriving 21st. Century economy.
It would be much better for all of us if our middle class had a little more job security, health security and encouraging prospects for the future. All of these would expand consumer spending and tax revenue in the long run and be a more just United States.
Here’s is another link to a Henry Aaron article I don’t know if you caught regarding how to make the Baucus Bill better.
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2009/10/14/2009-10-14_fix_baucus_health_reform_rx.html
Here’s a pretty good overview of where things stand in Afghanistan with lots of links for your reading pleasure, or maybe I should say displeasure.
http://news.firedoglake.com/2009/10/18/pulling-threads-afghanistan/
Imsinca…
“My sense of logic, while I am by no means an economist, tells me that the best investments we can make in our country are ones that raise the income levels of the poor and the middle class.”
I hate to be a one note guy but again a book I first discovered after Bill Moyers recommended it Norton Garfinkle (who IS an Ivy league economist)”The Gospel of Wealth Versus The American Dream” confirms “your sense of logic” with actual studies of economic results taking annual economic reports from 1950 to early in the Bush years. The actual results clearly show that in years where Keynsian (Democrats) principles were followed the ENTIRE country..wealthy included..but especially the middle class…were far better off than when the Laffer trickle down policies of the repubs were in effect.
Garfinkle examines this “fairness” issue from a historical perspective but basically what he shows with actual evidence…not projections is what you posted…
“It would be much better for ALL(my emphasis) of us if our middle class had a little more job security, health security and encouraging prospects for the future. All of these would expand consumer spending and tax revenue in the long run and be a more just United States.
Thanks ruk,
I’ve never read a book by an economist before, for even though I am interested in economics, I hate to be bored. Maybe I’ll try it. I can usually make it through a long article without giving up. Most of my ideas come from empirical evidence with a little bit of internet surfing for documents that give me some insight and just ring true.
What bothers me right now coming from conservatives and even libertarians, is now that they’ve pretty much wrecked the economy and the middle class, they want us to tighten out belts. HA! We’ve all tightened our belts and are just looking for a little fairness doctrine and opportunity. I know Obama gets it, I just wish the Repubs would sign on.
I know everyone is mostly asleep now, remember I’m on the West Coast so it’s still early, but here’s a little something to wake up to in the morning regarding Repubs. in Congress, called “There’s a Rep. for That”. Pretty much says it all for the last nine months. You’ll love this Bernie, rukidding, Liam, Tena, Ethan, amk, BBQ and all. The rest of you probably don’t want to watch. LOL
http://wakingupnow.com/blog/rep4that
Yeah, I saw that rep for everything. Pretty funny. Sad, but funny.
Yes, lmsinca. I saw that vid over at dkos. The funny part is that clever poster got it into the ourgop.com website created by that post turtle, steele. Stoopid doesn’t cover it.
You’re right mike from A., I find it sad as well. We could really use some help fixing the mess we’re in, but no one on the right seems to be willing to just say yeah, we’re in. I mean really, it’s not about big government, it’s about doing the right thing for the country, and smart government.
I loved it when Obama said he’s just getting started and he’s not tired. He has an uphill battle and lots of special interests on both sides of the aisle to fight. I’m not always in “love” with all of his decisions, but he’s trying to get us back on track, so I’m sticking with it.
Got a call from OFA tonight to attent a letter writing “party” to write and send letters to Senators and Reps. in support of the PO, so I know he’s still behind the reform that will get the best bang for the buck. I’m going to go do my thing with them on Tues. night.
Sorry, I know I’m over posting tonight, but Bernie you’ll love this one. SP posts her resume.
http://www.linkedin.com/in/governorsarahpalin
One more quick observations of bi-partisanship, get the damn vaccine. Ignore Rush on this one.
http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/63605-swine-flu-vaccine-debate-divides-some-on-capitol-hill
You wonder how much of this is Kabuki theater. The healthcare industry can now say they were forced into this windfall with a gun to their heads.
Speaking of Kabuki, new ad from progressive groups blasts Harry Reid:
http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/health-care/new-ad-from-progressive-group-blasts-harry-reid-is-he-strong-enough/
Liberals who still had some touch with reality might cringe just a bit at a President using this kind of rhetoric.
Sam The Eagle has landed.
Harrumph Harrumph!
Thanks very much for sharing this interesting post. I am just starting up my own blog and this has given me inspiration to what I can achieve.