Major Factor In Obama’s WaPo Poll Slide: Drop Among Dems, Liberals
A major factor in President Obama’s slide in today’s big Washington Post/ABC News poll, which is preoccupying the political classes today, is his surprisingly sharp drops among Democrats and even liberals, according to crosstabs that were sent my way.
Much talk today has focused on Obama’s difficulties with independents. But the drop among Dems and liberals is also a key driving factor in the President’s skid, according to WaPo polling analyst Jennifer Agiesta, who graciously provided the additional data.
This suggests Obama’s conciliatory approach to the GOP, and his lack of clarity around the public option — both of which are presumably alienating Dems and liberals — could be key factors driving his dip.
The numbers tell the story: In three key cases where Obama has dropped significantly, he’s also dropped by sizable margins among Dems and liberals. Let’s take the major findings driving the discussion today, and compare them with his drop among Dems and libs:
* The WaPo poll found that “49 percent now express confidence that Obama will make the right decisions for the country, down from 60 percent at the 100-day mark in his presidency.”
On that question, among liberals, Obama has dropped a surprising 12 points, from 90% to 78%, in the same time period. Among Dems, he’s dropped eight points, from 90% to 82%.
* The WaPo poll found that “forty-nine percent now say they think he will be able to spearhead significant improvements in the system, down nearly 20 percentage points from before he took office.”
On that question, among Dems, Obama has fallen a surprising 11 points during that time period, from 90% to 79%. Among liberals it was even steeper: A drop of 13 points, from 84% to 71%. (This could also partly be a referendum on Congress, but it’s still suggestive.)
* The WaPo poll also found a steep drop in approval of Obama’s handling of health care, which now stands at 46%, down 11 points from 57% in April.
But guess what: The drop during that time period was the same among liberals: Down 11 points, from 81% in April to 70% now. Among Dems overall, Obama fell six points, from 83% to 77%.
WaPo polling analyst Agiesta cautioned that independents were likely a greater factor, but she said Obama’s problems among Dems and liberals were clearly playing a key role: “This is the first sign that something is going wrong with his base.”
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Update: Another poll today arrived at very similar results.
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Compromise, shmompromise. +70% of Americans want the public option. The Dems are losing faith and patience. The Blue Dogs have us over a barrel. You give the Republicans an inch, they take 100 miles. Time to LBJ-up and get it done. Because it’s right.
Is this really that surprising?
When all the national polls were sliding a couple points, I was pretty sure it was because of progressives unhappy with the way Pres. Obama hasn’t taken more control of the debate.
I had thought that would be pretty common wisdom at this point.
I think a good question is: If congress and Obama pass h/c reform that does NOT include a public option, will the progressives/liberals come back?
And BBQ should note: “WaPo polling analyst Agiesta cautioned that independents were likely a greater factor.”
His base is disolvining in disillusionment. Snowe just said no public option on the table at all and then Hoyer said we may have to throw the po overboard even though he likes it. Give me a break. I’m thinking it was never really on the table to begin with and we were all played for a bunch of suckers. Oh well, just politics as usual. I’ll keep fighting because I’m mad and hopefully we will get something besides mandates and consumer protection which we all know the industry big whigs are all in favor of. YEAH, everyone’s has to have insurance, what a boon for them. Why not throw in tort reform and really make the repubs happy.
BBQ: I think the drops are surprisingly large, and as WaPo’s polling analyst put it, this is the first real indicator of problems with the base. It’s a striking development, I’d say
Robert Reich called for a march on Washington on September 13, Grandparents’ Day, in support of a public option. Hope it gains traction.
@LindaS: “I’m thinking it was never really on the table to begin with and we were all played for a bunch of suckers.”
Then you’ll LOVE this post by Hamsher:
http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/08/19/the-baucus-caucus-phrma-insurance-hospitals-and-rahm/
“this weekend’s comments by White House officials simply acknowledged the long-obvious reality that the idea of a government-run insurance plan was partly a bargaining chip.”
… A commitment that the bill will be “bipartisan” (since the GOP would never agree to one) was a signal that there would be no public plan.
The White House never cared about getting Republican votes — it cared about keeping the Republicans from peeling off the dollars of stakeholders like PhRMA. Giving in to “Republican” demands was cover for writing ****** things into the bill that would keep the stakeholders happy. They didn’t need Republican votes, they never did, and they never truly cared. As long as the money stayed out of their campaign coffers, it was all good.”
A politician should know the formost rule in governing. Never turn off the base that put you in office. Come 2010 and 2012, it is the base that can put him back in office again, not the rednecks. Rednecks will be too busy destroying him starting 2011. Obama being a smart guy should have known that first.
@ sbj, how about a question that asks if health care reform is passed that does include a public option, will support return?
My guess is it will. The president’s drop in numbers is due to not pushing his agenda hard enough and not vice versa. If health care is passed that does not include a public option, I will be very disappointed in the president’s administration and definitely the Dems in Congress.
I do love the FDL quote, however.
It’s not surprising at all that the people who supported Kucinich and Edwards etc. during the primaries would be quick to jump ship. A poll saying what those people think this far from an actual election is almost meaningless. Obama is playing rope-a-dope, he has barely begun punching back, the fight doesn’t really start until September. See what the polls say by the beginning of October, then they might have some real meaning. I worked in survey research for 15 years, it’s always harder to get people on the phone in July and August so I really wouldn’t take current numbers that seriously.
Oh yes politics as usual, follow the money trail.
I’m one of the disenchanted. It appears that the Dems can never get anything done. End the Iraq war? Not yet. End the Afghanistan war? Nope…bigger. Investigate war crimes? Probably not in my lifetime. Stop home foreclosures? A joke. Get serious with Wall St. regulation? Hah! And now we have health care reform: Let Medicare negotiate on drugs? Forget it. A robust Public Option? First, take out the spine, then the teeth, kill real competition, then stick in a mandate to force everyone to buy insurance from the existing companies. I bet that would pass. This is why I’m about to go Green. I’m so disappointed in this Party.
Jotham, I’d love to think you’re right. I supported Obama from day one and just keep getting this sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach. From a personal standpoint we really need meaningful reform and it’s hard not to get hit over the head by the conflicting messages from the White House in particular and Dem’s generally.
Obama has betrayed pretty much every promise he made during the campaign: from medicinal marijuana, to torture, to Guantanamo Bay, to healthcare, to gay rights. My question is, why isn’t his approval rating lower?
Right, Al. Good question. One thing’s for sure. A few Blue Dogs have got to go. I may not ever donate to Obama again, but I certainly know the names of the dogs in congress who need to be voted out in Primaries. And I look forward to helping. Check out Act Blue.
Obama is both Stupid and Aggressive.
Think he’s smart – then why won’t he release his college grades
Nope, this guy blends the two worst characteristics…Stupid & Aggressive.
I continue to be amazed that people forget so quickly the long game Obama played throughout the primaries and election, refusing to be seduced by the 24 hour news cycle and timing and calibrating his responses in ways far more subtle and effectivele than his formidable opposition. This fight is hardly started, and he’s in this one to win. The base will come back to him easily once he does, and the opposition will be sitting there with their heads spinning saying”but these tactics ALWAYS worked in the past!” He refuses to act or appear to act intransigent while maneuvering his opponents into untenable positions.
While I agree substantively with the complaints, I have to say that to suggest that because he hasn’t completed some or most of our objectives in the first 7 months of his 4 years that we should give up on him and the party. That is insanity. The progressive faction was not the only one that elected Barack Obama. There is a vast, slightly more “center” suburban middle class that has substantial clout. No doubt they are not progressive, but they deserve to be heard as much as we. So let’s raise our voices and demand passing a progressive legislative agenda, but at the end of the day we need to be patient and realistic, and we need to support the long boring procedural tactics that I strongly believe WILL work (and in fact IS working now… just needs time to run its course). Just my $.02.
The effect is actually worse than it appears. People tend to think of Independents as ‘moderate’ or somewhere in between Republican and Democrat. This isn’t entirely true. Many of the Independents are to the left of the Dems and to the right of the Reps. It would be interesting to see exactly which Independents he’s losing ground with.
Just like Clinton, run as a progressive, govern as a corporatist. Makes you wonder if the Goldman Sachs boys,and
others put a gun to their heads and said NO!!
To all of you above who want a “public option”:
How long do you think ObamaCare will survive if there aren’t any doctors to dispense it? What if most of them just throw up their hands and move into more profitable pursuits like, oh say, lawyering, lobbying, or politics?
I’d like to think, in your mad rush toward Single-Payer Nirvana, you’ve pondered this possibility. But you haven’t, have you?
Wow, does Kathleen know that marijuana is not covered under the public option? (not that I know of at least). I’d like to see one poll, that is of a cross section of Americans, that even shows them in favor of reform, forget about 70% of them in favor of the government running the entire system.
I think you’d be lucky to 70% in favor even at a Greenpeace rally.
Bill Maher is right.The Dems have gone right,the reps into
the loony bin.
He is so disappointing. Bush-lite. I Hope we can put pressure on Him to Change his ways. I did not vote for this.
Bob, you are so correct. All those GOLDman Sacks guys in the White House. Barack needs to get back to his roots.
i’ve seen the +70% want a public option. would you please provide any links to back this up?
and can it really be any surprise that obama is not doing well? how many times during the campaign was his lack of experience brought up? not just lack of executive experience, but lack of any real legislative experience. you can’t dump a neophyte into the shark waters of washington and expect miracles.
It’s not that he’s not liberal. Just look at the ideas that come out from the White House. It’s that he’s not competent at this time. Not having ever met the man, I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to lack of experience.
but it’s interesting what’s happening to obama in the polls is very similar to what happened to bush. in both cases there is x% of people who will always approve of or disaprove of the person. then there are the ideological “True believers”. In the case of Bush, he lost a lot of support because of Immigration Reform and Medicare D. Obama is losing support for not following through on the liberal-left agenda.
And then there are the independents, who don’t like people too extreme either way. They didn’t like Bush, because they thought he was too conservative and they are now starting to get the idea that Obama may be too liberal and too much of a statist.
Sounds like lots of you were taken for a ride by Obama. My pre-election investigation of him showed me that he was a smooth talking con man. Now the rest of the country is finding out that they were conned. He is a rigid ideologue who believes in theories and ideas that have been proven wrong time and time again. I wish he knew something about real world economics and business, but alas.
There’s nothing surprising about it. Many people knew this would happen even before Obama was elected. He is not a liberal. He is owned by Wall Street. He stands for nothing. It was obvious all along. As John Pilger says, Obama is a creation of corporate marketing. For all those who are disillusioned, it’s time to realize that voting for president is meaningless. It’s caring about issues that count — mass social movements. Stop being citizens only once every four years.
Obama is becoming our George W. Bush. People confuse his personal qualities, which we Liberals seen to greatly admire, with his professional qualities. While Obama seems to have a great personal discipline, in many ways he’d proving to be a weak leader, someone who seems to have an excessive need to be liked (hence all his backpedaling and compromising), and most worrisome to me, he seems to lack the personal courage to take stands.
I regret voting for him. And I REALLY regret donating $ to his campaign.
This discussion is really amazing. Obama is so left wing that the left cannot possibly get someone more in tune with their hopes. He tried to ram his “health care” plan without the public knowing what was in it. This worked with the stimulus and cap and trade but this time the public became aware of the massive and ill considered change planned in the bill. The protesters are scared and mad. The response to their concerns has been bogus insults (astroturf). Don’t worry though, the Democrats and their lapdog media will manage to ram a bill through that large majorities do not want.
Here is a link to the latest Rasmussen report I could find. According to this, the “mass social movement” would be trying to prevent Congress from usurping another one of our liberties.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/august_2009/support_for_congressional_health_care_reform_falls_to_new_low
Metz — only thing high here is the desire for a public option.
June 20
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/06/19/opinion/polls/main5098517.shtml
August 20
http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=5ba17aa2-f1b9-4445-a6b8-62b9d1ba8693
sbj
Should note that the independents give the Republicans in congress a 10 percent approval rating
Whoa, Hurricane Bill blowing a bunch of trolls ashore.
Hey Mike, you know that the “left” you so disparage is part of the “public” that you champion, too, right? In fact, last time we stood up for a headcount (Nov 2008), the “left” was the majority in this country. Why shouldn’t the government we voted into office — majorities in both House and Senate as well as the Executive branch — reflect our wishes? Isn’t *that* democracy?
People need to stop running down Obama. It it just like with OJ. At least the rest of the African-American community is sticking up for him.
It’s disgusting.
Heckuva Job Obammy!
Please, please, please have a march on Washington Sept. 13. The Tea Party folks are having a march on Sept. 12 in Washington and this will be a wonderful opportunity to compare relative strengths.
That 70% number is either made up or from some non-random sample.
The last election was about repudiating the bungling, tongue-tied Bush personally along with the corrupt party that turned RINO on his watch. It was not about granting the left any kind of Scandinavian-style socialist mandate. Liberal constitute about 22 percent of the electorate and 95 percent of the MSM. No wonder Obama is having trouble as independents, AKA “low-information voters,” wake from their slumber and the GOP sheds the last of Dubya’s dumb-*** influence.
Lestr
“People need to stop running down Obama. It it just like with OJ.At least the rest of the African-American community is sticking up for him.”
Stick with Obama like one sticks with a felon who got away with murdering his wife. Interesting analogy.
excuse me, ex-wife.
Right on Emma… I like Pilger desperately want American’s to take back this country. True Americans (not wingnuts and corporate stooges) are going to have to fight (not only obama but congress as well) to take this country back from the mafia thugs that have had a stranglehold over it for atleast 50 years. People need to turn the tube (propaganda machine) off and think and answer for themselves why: whether Republican of Democrat nothing ever changes. We just keep getting more of the same garbage. They are all actors doing the bidding of the mafia. America is a criminocracy run by supranational oligarchs. Obama spent his political capital running a ruse of pretending to want substantive health care reform while in fact forging secret deals with big pharma and the insurance death panels for their mutual benefit. He cannot be trusted to do anything we need.
Wow, Greg, I’m always interested to know who linked to you, because they just come on like an infestation of roaches. No logic, no arguments, just racism (Lester), na-na-boo-boo,-I-can’t-hear-you (jm), BS (metz), middle school wit (jm) and delusions (Banjo).
Have at it, trolls, the thoughtful regulars will wait until your little storm blows over.
@RDM: Yes, I’m not a big fan of the GOP, either. A favorite bumper sticker: Vote the “Ins” OUT!
Sounds like Metz and Mike wandered into the wrong room. We’re trying to have an intelligent conversation to figure out how we can put pressure on Congress and our President to keep the public option in as a choice for insurance. Some of us are disappointed that it’s such a struggle to fix everything that went wrong over the last decade and we know we can’t expect everything in 6 or 7 months, so our fight continues. Doesn’t mean we need your right of center input or bogus polls. We can just turn on FOX for that perspective.
Kathleen, we can wait them out.
This is for all the non-believers out there and those who say “Obama stands for nothing.” I say what the heck do you stand for. Its seems to me that most of you on here are to busy trying to get revenge on the right that you cant see the forrest for the trees. The way you all are talking seems like you never had faith in the administration at all. Just a bunch of hot air liberals that dopn’t stand for anything but a quick fix. You all ought to be ashamed of yourselves acting like impatient two year olds. Thats why you leave adult things to the adults. Are you all so blinded by rage against the right that you can’t see the strategy and the chess match that is being played out? What? You only support someone so far as all your demands are met in 7 months? You don’t have the patience to wait a little while and your issues will take light? What a bunch of losers you all are. Next election, go vote republican and then you can really be disappointed. Or better yet, vote “green.” Just like voting reublican because they will never win. Just go ahead and give the Rethugs your vote. I am ashamed to even call myself a liberl/progresive or whatever that means because you all don’t know it seems. I would rather have true supporters than the likes of you guys. I could care less about winnign anymore as long as Obama has true support from folks who actually care about him as he does about us. I am a true liberal and see the strategy and wisdom of Obama and I will ride out for him regardless of what happens unlike a lot of you fake supporters. When he gets healthcare done, when he gets the repeal of DADT, when he can finally close GITMO, when he puts an end to the insurgency in Afganistan, etc, I will sit back and say I told you so and you all can sit around and look stupid and eat your words. This is why the Democrats can never win anything because of fake people like you all. At least the republicans are united. You all are jokes. I have a job, I have healthcare, I make a good living. But yet and still, I will ride out for Obama and the rest of America who are less fortunate because I care about the human cause. You guys will never be pleased so its no use even talking anymore. Good luck with the next republican President you idiots. Obama all the way 2012.
The public option is completely immoral (see Atlas Shrugged). We need to move to a fully free market – something we haven’t had for many decades.
Ours is a representative republic…not a democracy
kathleen, did you read the questions contained in the latest poll?
Question 2, which you use to support your position that the majority is in favor asks, “How important do you feel it is to give people a choice of both a public plan administered by the federal government and a private plan for their health insurance”
I am strongly opposed, but yet I would have had to answer “very important” to this question.
The CBS poll did not show the questions used to derive their results.
Another interesting thing between the two is, did you notice the large drop in approval in such a short time? Do you think this is why they were in such a hurry to get something passed? It seems to me that the more time people have to digest what this means to them, and the country, the more opposed to it they become.
I am old enough to have lived during FDR and been an active adult during the administration of LBJ. I’ve actually experienced winning with someone a little left of center. I know what victory actually feels like.
I make it my business to know what people from the teens to their late 30’s are thinking. Amongst aqauintances from brick layers to salesmen to $300,000 + lawers and MD’s I am the person most optimistic that Obama will bring about substancial change in our present banker and corporate dominated slide to oblivion and constitutional crash.
A serious turnabout in who the government works for. From bankers as the boss, to a state that at least treats working people as important clients, is the goal of everyone I know, wheather rightish or leftish.
I say that Obama is truly working toward the same goal, how could he think otherwise and have been a community organizer? I pray that “fiddlegraig” and “ethan” of these comments are right, Obama has a one two punch that he will deliver when he’s got the republicans and blue dogs where he wants ‘em.
But I am hard pressed to find evidence that he’s sneak’in one over. It certainly is clear, we all agree, that he has no one clearly on his team Why he appointed the enemies of change to most of the important positions around him, we cannot figure out.
Obama,please come out fighting this round. The dropping of a ROBUST public option in medical reform will leave me without any defense of you. Try the left side of the ring awaile.
I’d rather go after the “Blue Dogs” than Obama. Every one of them should be voted out at the first opportunity, and we should all work together to get that done! If the Dems actually had 60 seats instead of 50, this would be a beautiful time for America. As is, it’s still a 50-50 game, no matter what letter they put after their name.
I have this image of Kathleen Hussein putting her fingers in her ears until the Instalanche dies down. But while I’m visiting this strange little part of the universe, I’ll try to ease your collective angst by telling you why it is that leftists can’t govern the way they ran: they get hit by reality. Something that you folks here manage to insulate yourselves from pretty effectively.
Think he’s smart – then why won’t he release his college grades
Um, if that’s the best you’ve got in support of your contention that he’s stupid, and you haven’t paid any attention to the comments of his professors and colleagues, including Harvard Law professor Laurence Tribe, as well as professors at the University of Chicago’s law school, that’s pretty sad.
There are a lot of things he is (good and bad), but stupid (in the sense of “unintelligent”, rather than “foolish” or “naive”, etc.) isn’t one of them.
Think back… when did Obama start advancing in the primary? What kind of voting machines were being used? There are no coincidences and NOTHING is left to chance. The PTB are quit happy with Obama’s “performance”
This is a pox on all your houses. Pres Obama needs to decide where his core supporters are. They are not independents, who by definition, go where they “think” their salvation lay. Now as a progressive I see Steny Hoyer doing his classic double talk today after Nancy Pelosi’s clear stance. Why do I want to support a bunch of Democrats who can’t distinnguish between their as* and their elbow
see Atlas Shrugged
Ah yes. So, when do you graduate from high school?
It is a representative democratic republic. See, the conservatives think in black and white (see Atlas Shrugged). The liberals think in shades of gray (see the U.S. Constitution).
Obamabot, the name suits you. Since when do we have to blindly believe everything our president and leaders in congress tell us? I personally think a little skepticism is healthy. I also think we need to keep the pressure on Congress by letting them know where we stand. Actually, you’re a little scary to me. A plant maybe?
they get hit by reality
Oh, you mean the opposition from fundamentalist Christians who are still convinced evolution is just an evil plot to undermine civilization?
OMG! We haven’t obtained world peace, a scorching economy & and complete health reform in 7 WHOPPIN’ MONTHS!
Obama is a failure?
Talk to me a year from now. I wish I knew some of you guys. I would wager a months salary that things will be better.
Metz, you see people having had time to digest what is going on, leading to a precipitous drop in desire for a public option. I see a massive disinformation campaign scaring the bejesus out of people. But you and I are never going to reach agreement, so, ttfn. And yes, I read the questions.
Obama has let us down in this significant way:
He tossed universal health care over the fence to Congress to write.
It is no longer his, yet he has to defend it.
Because he tossed it over the fence rather than craft it himself and pass it to Congress, we now have a 1000+ page monstrosity that no one has read or understands. That is what has gotten people moved to action like never before to oppose it.
This is not chess game he is playing.
He did not set up the board.
He is not in control of the players.
It is not his game.
Don’t expect any sudden goal-line push in September/October, cuz he does not have the ball.
I am sorely disappointed in his failure to lead on this most important issue.
LINDA S-I am not a plant nor am I scary. Just a serious supporter who has faith in our President. Can’t say the same for you.
Kathleen (ahem) Hussein appears to prefer the echo chamber environment where never a contrary word is heard. At the risk of aiding the enemy, here’s a tip. This behavior leads to the self-hypnosis that explains why the left is invariably flummoxed by reality. Come out of your shell and rub elbows with — dare I say it? — real people.
Dougger-Ok I get it. You don’t like the Prez, but stop with the dumb logic. If you cant see the strategy then you are blind. Be disappointed all you want. Hillary and Bill wrote the last bill and that went down in flames. Obama is trying a new approach.
@Chip — thanks for the tell. There’s something weird about the Instapundittoheads. The professor says “go,” and people who can’t be bothered to engage here on a regular basis suddenly show up en masse with a pile of wet tea bags.
Fiddlecraig — You’re on the money. Some of us noticed during the primaries that it’s never smart to bet against Barack Obama. He’s a chess prodigy, calmly considering his next move. When he does move, his opponents look like beginner checker players.
David P WIlliams …. I’d like to “hope” you are right but unfortunately Obama’s background makes that scenario extremely unlikely. Its too late; he’s in office now but fact is Obama is a product of Sidley Austin as is Michelle Robinson which has very deep ties to nefarious schemes (dead peasant life insurance) designed to profit from chaos causing schemes of death and destruction (the anniversary for which a major one comes up next month). Look at his mentors… unrepentant 60’s era terrorist that have been given protection and a veneer of legitimacy. Obama was groomed for at least 20 years for this role. Again .. I hope you are right … I hope I’m wrong… hope hope hope…
I like Obama.
I voted for him.
I contributed to his campaign (my first ever)
I don’t have to dislike him to be disappointed in him.
On the contrary, it is because I like him and want him to succeed that I am disappointed in him.
Whoa…came back late to respond.
@Greg:
I didn’t mean to imply that it wasn’t newsworthy. It certainly is. I’m not suprised at the size of the decline, if only because the buzz on the net is all about how p***ed progressives are right now with Pres. Obama for not plowing HCR through. DK, FDL, MyDD. Heck, even traditional media is starting to question the strategy of the hands off approach – which means the blogs have been doing it for weeks (they are always ahead of the curve).
@sbj:
The Democrats have a bigger decline than Independents. I don’t have the full poll crosstabs, so I can’t speak directly to the numbers. If they have more Indies in the poll, then maybe the percentage drop for them represents a larger number of people? Dunno, unless I can look at the guts.
But again, I’d argue that the slacking in Indies is likely split evening between those moving to the right (against reform) and those moving to the left (becoming impatient). If that’s the case, combine those Indies becoming impatient with the Dems – and that’s your “slide”.
All of that said…imagine the BUMP Pres. Obama’s going to get when this thing passes – esp. with a public option (which I still think it likely). It will be 3-4 months worth of steady decline jolted back into the ‘approve’ column.
Fiddlecraig:
My point exactly. No faith in this forum. Just a bunch of defeated faux liberals.
B-HO smokes moosecock
Obamabot -
“Dumb logic?”
Merely statement of the facts.
Perhaps you could enlighten is all on this so called strategy that only you and Obama are privy to?
If you are not willing to spell it out, I have to conclude you are only hoping there is an underlying strategy.
Banjo, what’s it like in Instapundit land? Vigorous debate from all parts of the political spectrum?
I’m always happy to hear/read intelligent points of view, and while the regulars here lean liberal we have a have a few regular conservative commenters, too. My problem is the swarming. It’s so juvenile.
Of course the slide is among the Democratic base. We voted for Obama and the Dem Congress because they told us they would deliver a public plan. Now with one of the biggest majorities in history, they are wimping out. We are more than disappointed. We are completely disgusted.
Dougger-I understand, but there is no need to be disappointed after 7 months as soooo many people here and on other sites are. Wait until a year or so and if things haven’t changed then start worrying. Most Presidents do nothing for fear of upseting elements of society. He is doing the heavy lifting now so that it is done when he is up for re-election. After healthcare passes with a public option, you will start to see more things take hold. My advice to all is to be patient.
Kathleen in Maine and et al…. The public option in Maine “DirigoChoice”, intended to reduce waste and inefficiencies worked so well that premiums have increase 74% and state imposed insurance rules have driven up insurance costs. Currently, out of financial necessity, the state has capped the enrollment, not allowing for new entrants and creating a waiting list. What is it about FACTS that you people don’t understand? I’m not against providing health care to the uninsured but any half wit can see that the various plans floating around will spell DISASTER. Just a bunch of self-serving, bull-headed individuals who want to get “their way” no matter the consequences. WORST collective political class in the history of our country, elected by a ill-informed, self-righteous electorate.
If health care passes with a public option, I will be pleasantly surprised.
But I can be patient, since patience will not change the outcome. But if we do not get the public option passed by the end of the year as he has promised, I will start voting Green.
Dougger-
Remeber the campaign. Obama was down mot of the primaries and some of the general. He never got angry, never jumped the gun. He did things where we were like, “get tough already.” Sound familiar? He didn’t listen to use then and look how it turned out. For once, I have faith in a President to do the right thing for this country even if the idiot republicans who oppose Obama don’t se they are opposing their interests. He is playing a chess game. And while I do not know what is going on in his head and do not have a direct line to him, I know that there is a strategy. We didn’t stick with him throughout the campaign to just lose faith now. The republicans would love for us to do just that so they can divide us yet again and have us voting for different folks like Nader, green party people, etc. In 2012, there will be Republicans and Libertarians going against each other. Let them fight. It will be the equivilant to Gore and Nader.
There is an old saying about “you leave with the one who brung ya” or something like that. Any way I think the President has missed the point. The GOP certainly didn’t bring him to the party, nor did the talking heads of the Democratic Congress. But, I did, a registered Republican, and a lot of other “liberal” voters that wanted someone in Washington to buy back our government from the lobbyist and instigate the “change” we so badly need. That is why so many of us are becoming disillusioned by Obama’s vacillation and attempts to appease his enemies, and also a lot of his own party members in
Congress, who also have a large income to protect. It is almost a certainty that poll numbers will continue to show a decrease in support until he takes the bull by the horn and starts to throw his weight around.
If he does not do this he will probably become just another “house sitter”.
Dougger-
“I will start voting Green.”
If things get so bad where we can’t ever trust Obama and the democrats again and some sort of changes are not made before his term is up, I will never vote again as that will validate all the cynics who say nothing changes in Washington.
Obamabot.~
The victim of blind loyalty and you’re already divide and conquered.
Its not about rooting for your team. Its about doing whats best for the country. Don’t be swayed by any suave sounding slick looking politician. Try to be more sophisticated than that.
Richard-
I am more sophisticated than that. I am from Chicago and everything Obama campaign on when he ran for Illinois senate he tried to accomplish. He did get everything but he did most. I am loyal and will always be. I know whats best for the country but the country doesn’t know it. I am for single payor but the country isn’t. Justy because you have no faith, don’t tell me how to support my president. Voting republican soon? Or have you done that already?
Obamabot:
“If you cant see the strategy then you are blind. Be disappointed all you want. Hillary and Bill wrote the last bill and that went down in flames. Obama is trying a new approach.”
And how’s that seem to be working out for y’all?
This isn’t the GOP’s doing. You folks have filibuster-proof majorities in both Houses of Congress.
This turkey’s ALL YOURS.
At the risk of damaging someone’s worldview ’round these parts, I’d suggest that a **** is STILL a ****, no matter if it’s crapped out of the Clinton White House or if it’s crapped out in Pelosi’s Congress.
The American People, despite what you folks keep telling each other,simply want nothing to do with this sh*t.
It IS rather amusing though, watching y’all contort yourselves while trying to cling to your threadbare and discredited neo-Marxist notions.
You were USED, gang, Just like you USED Cindy Sheehan.
The Fellow Who Claims To Have Been Born In Hawaii, would like you all kindly to STFU and go take a vacation somewhere…until he needs you to show up and let his operatives make you scared and angry again.
Doh!!!
It just like when you buy a established business, the first rule is don’t alienate your customer base.
This so called agent of change is doing one of hell a job alienating the people who elected him.
Bilgeman-
Dont ever use one of my quotes for your stupid republican bable. My friend, you are the idiot I am speaking of. After the 08 election you would have thought the likes of you would have gone somewhere and shut the f*** up. But you still have to rear your ugly head huh? Look, go put your head where the sun don’t shine will ya? Your party has been so discredited and has not leg to stand on. You facists are bad for the country and I can’t wait until we get rid of all the nazi conservatives and replace them with Americans who have awakend from the conservative distortion. Get a life loser.
When u stand for nothing, you fall for anything? Pres. Obama would rather appease republicans than do what is right for the American public. Health care reform without a public option is not reform, its a failure.
Richard, please outline specifically why a single payor system will serve ALL Americans better. Honestly, other than the “reduce inefficiencies” rhetoric I can’t find a single statistic that sways me to a single payor system. Maybe that is why the White House is losing the PR battle on this….
Empty suit. Empty head. An overwhelming percentage of the people are happy with their healthcare situation. This is a ginned-up crisis and an outrageous power grab. The people (the ones that aren’t total fools) can feel it in their bones. Keep barking, moonbats.
sorry, I meant to direct my question to Obamabot
Overwhelming majority of Americans are happy with the health care?
You need to stop hitting that pipe.
Kathleen –
Apparently, you never visit Instapundit. Or have ever visited it. It’s not really a site with any analysis or anything to discuss. Mr. Reynolds just links stuff that strikes him as interesting, and if we find his description interesting enough to follow the link, we do.
His just a way of finding things in all four corners of the web. His readers do their own thinking, their own analysis. I don’t even know how you could possibly think we’re a flock of his own personal flying monkeys, cause he doesn’t even say anything much more than “Heh. Indeed.”
And “70% pro-public option” either is BS, or the respondents weren’t given enough info to possibly compare their belief of what that entails as opposed to the massive government powergrab that is HR3200.
argh…His SITE IS just a way…monkies, not monkeys…man, that one was riddled with errors. :/
Obamabot:
“Dont ever use one of my quotes for your stupid republican bable. My friend, you are the idiot I am speaking of. After the 08 election you would have thought the likes of you would have gone somewhere and shut the f*** up. But you still have to rear your ugly head huh? Look, go put your head where the sun don’t shine will ya? Your party has been so discredited and has not leg to stand on. You facists are bad for the country and I can’t wait until we get rid of all the nazi conservatives and replace them with Americans who have awakend from the conservative distortion. Get a life loser.”
Thank you very kindly for the marvelous ad hominem attack.
I could not have expected a more feeble retort had I asked Rush Limbaugh to write in your stead as my very own sockpuppet.
I am in your debt, Sir or Madam!
It’s interesting that WaPo focused on Independents instead of Democrats, specifically liberal Democrats. WaPo decided to go with the “Independents are turned off by aggressive agenda” meme that’s the rave in Washington. But, as another commenter has noted, these numbers suggest an entirely different meme: “Democrats turned off by Obama not pushing his agenda aggressively enough.” When I contacted the WH the other day after Sebelius’ ambiguity, I noted (as I hope many others are) that the WH may not understand exactly how the left is viewing the handling of the public option, and that relinquishing it could do lasting political damage to Obama, since liberals were becoming disillusioned (or already are disillusioned) with some of his decisions (many of which Krugman noted in his column today). I would hazard a guess that Krugman’s words may carry more weight than mine, but the collective voices sending the “be careful to not forsake your liberal base” note will likely carry the most weight. One can only hope that they heed the message. Concomitantly, there’s been much buzz recently about how the political climate is shifting in Republicans favor — a notion that’s not really borne out in any polling; they still face dismal ratings on most issues. The meme about Democratic disillusionment is more consistent with the lack of Republican gains than the Independent disillusionment meme. So, just to note, I think Washington’s wrong about the Republicans’ prospects (at least at this point; we are a long way out from the next election). I think we’re mostly seeing Democratic and/or Democratic-leaning Independent disillusionment fostered by the perception of a timid agenda push. Thus, Obama’s numbers likely have resilience that will be mediated by the quality and extent of any healthcare reform bill Obama ultimately obtains… By the way, on a related note: Why aren’t these crosstabs made available to the public? Why are only some portions of the crosstabs released to the public?
Kathleen in Maine: Have you honestly never visited the Instapundit site? I find that rather amusing, given that you seem to think you know something about its readers!
I recommend the experience of reading something different once in a while. It has been enlightening to spend a few moments here.
There is no comment section at Instapundit. The site has far too many readers for that.
But the posts themselves do come from quite a few parts of the political spectrum. Glenn Reynolds, the blogger who writes Instapundit, has a generally libertarian perspective and fits the description of a classical liberal. He covers a very broad spectrum of topics. He has a great dry sense of humor and his wry comments on the current events he covers are much appreciated by his readers. Glenn is one of the first bloggers to have drawn a large readership and has written an interesting book on why the Internet matters called An Army of Davids. He is a professor of Constitutional law, so it’s useful to read his informed comments on issues that pertain to the law, and he links to some top legal bloggers. I heartily recommend the blog.
For those of you who believe that +70% of Americans want the public option… if that were true, Obama’s approval on healthcare would be around… oh, 70%.
It isn’t.
Another massive, never-ending entitlement is unacceptable to most Americans, especially in the Obamaconomy of double-digit unemployment and spiraling federal deficits. Deal with it.
Wow, this is normally a pretty good place to share info and express views with folks who both share your philosophy and some who don’t. Tonight it has regressed significantly, have a good weekend all.
Oasin:
“When u stand for nothing, you fall for anything? Pres. Obama would rather appease republicans than do what is right for the American public. Health care reform without a public option is not reform, its a failure.”
Ex-queeze me? Doesn’t the Democratic Party enjoy filibuster-proof majorities in both Houses?
Why, yes…yes they DO!
So, like the sneaker company says:
“Just Do It!”
But here you are like a good little sloganeer, blaming the poor old befuddledand discredited GOP for your pet Marxist project not already being a done deal?
It is to laugh.
The resistance to your Single-Payer Canadian/UK/Euro Health Care Nirvana is coming from Democrats who know that they are going to get creamed for it by their own constituencies.
That’s the fact, Jack!
Google: “Marjorie Margolies-Mezvinsky” sometime …we’ve seen THIS movie before.
Kathleen,
Instapundit links to interesting stories. This was an intersting story. More interesting is the response from left-leaning commenters that in response to steeply falling public support, Obama should double down and push harder.
In a con game, if you don’t know who the mark is, it is you.
In my opinion, Obama won because 7 years of unrelenting bitching about Bush, and a pathetic McCain campaign, took their toll on the republican base, which did not show up in November. In addition, Obama ran in the general as a centrist. That peeled away a lot of center right folks that were willing to give the guy a shot. I mean, its not like he is going to triple the deficit, or place unions in front of secured creditors in bankruptcy court. That is my opinion.
Face it, aside from community organizing, Obama has done nothing of note on an executive level. This is a big country. The man had a flimsy resume. If this was a corporation, he never would have been considered. As likable and ideologically pure as he was to the left, he still was unqualified for what it takes to get things done. It is a different skill set.
This isn’t Venezuela. The president is not a dictator, he has to govern all the people.
If you think it is ok for the government to own your healthcare data, ask yourself this: Would it be ok under a president Cheney? Paul? Palin? Buchannan? I toss those names out not because I think they can win, but as an example of what if?
The patriot act is nothing compared to the abuses possible with government run healthcare.
That aside. Is the VA a model of healthcare possibilities? Medicare? What on earth makes you think the government will change? You think the pentagon buys $500 toilet seats because they want to?
This isn’t a right or left thing, its a common sense thing.
What I find surprising is the number of people who didn’t trust government before November, but do now.
I await my being labeled as an Gun-totin, Bible thumping, redneck, teabagging, ignorant hick in 5, 4, 3..
Heh
Yes, I’ve been to Instapundit before, but my time is limited and I don’t visit often. I was being ironic when I said the professor sends you along (see, I know Glenn Reynolds is a law professor, there’s a hint).
I link through to things all the time from favorite sites, I’m mostly commenting on the propensity of Instapundit readers to bombard this site with comments when GR links through.
I’ll keep it in mind when I want to read his pov on legal issues.
try the latest Rasmussen poll (a real poll by the way) which has 57% against the single payer. not even close. you know that a poll run by ACORN doesn’t exactly carry weight, right?
Truth and light — You can’t fire me, I quit? 7 years of bitching about Bush, followed by a weak McCain campaign, led us to a depressed Republican turnout and likable lightweight Obama prevailing. Yeah, that must have been it.
Not 7 years of Bush incompetence and deceitfulness. That couldn’t be it. There was a man with executive experience, who serially ran businesses into the ground. Cheney, plenty of exec experience, yeah, he’s the one. Palin also. McCain, not so much. Clinton, not so much. Dialing back, Reagan, yes, and very good at delegating and waking up to wink, chuckle and say something inspiring once in awhile. Clinton, small state governor, he worked out, Carter didn’t. Bush I, not so hot. I’m not seeing a lot of candidates or keepers with massive executive experience.
Kathleen,
Respectfully, I stated that was my opinion. You don’t have to like it. But I’ll play. In response to your list, other than Cheney, (who, despite the fevered imaginations of some, was never president) what experience did all of the other candidates have?
I can hum the theme to Jeopardy if you like.
Thats right! Executive experience! A governor of a state is an executive. Like I said, different skill set.
Now, Please tell me why you think it will be peachy keen for the government to own our healthcare data under a president Cheney?
I’m awaiting some of that rich intellectual exchange of ideas you promised…
Heh.
Did I just fall off my chair or did I hear that the Democratic Party FINALLY is recognizing that there is a bit of power among their liberal base.
Kathleen Hussein in Maine:
“Not 7 years of Bush incompetence and deceitfulness.”
Isn’t it amazing how much of Bush 43’s “incompetence and deceitfulness” have been adopted lock, stock, and barrel by the One?
Let’s see:
Still in Iraq? check
Still in Afghanistan? check
Gitmo still open? check
Bailouts to Big Business? check
PATRIOT Act still the law? check
Pushing HUGE Federal medical entitlement programs? check
Signing pork-laden spending bills? check
Running up deficits and our national debt? check
Gee, when you come right down to it, about the only difference between #43 and #44 is the size of those checks…and that the darker dude wants to tax “the Rich” and Tobacco users of all income levels.
Anything else?
Oh yeah…Obama doesn’t like carbon emissions like happens when you drive your car or heat your home,(I hope you REALLY enjoy your weather up there in Maine this winter!).
Ah-yup, you really picked a winner with That One.
You don’t think racism has anything to do with the slam on Obama. Then how do you account for the nasty that Micheal Vick had to put up with. He did his time. Leave him alone, also.
Obama will always have our support. No matter what you peeple say.
Obama needs to call in the conservative democrats and read them the riot act. PERIOD. The public option is too important. Emanual got these guys their jobs. They owe him. Enough of the BS.
Yellowbird:
“Did I just fall off my chair or did I hear that the Democratic Party FINALLY is recognizing that there is a bit of power among their liberal base.”
If the Liberal base had any power, ObamaCare would already be a done deal.
It’s the rest of the voters that the Party is worried about.
The “Liberal base” shot it’s wad in electing Ned Lamont of Connecticut as “Democratic Candidate for Senate”, but then in the general election, Joe Lieberman, (Independent), cleaned his clock.
You think that THAT lesson has already been forgotten on the Hill?
The Liberal base is being taken for granted as having nowhere else to go…because they don’t.
I hope that fall you took doesn’t bruise badly…I wouldn’t wish you a visit to a government-run clinic.
Why anyone would want the government to control their healthcare is beyong my understanding.
The liberal base is just as screwed as christian conservatives in favor of small government. Both are viewed by the establishment in their parties as fat chicks they can call at 2 AM for a booty call because they have no other options.
Rob:
“Emanual got these guys their jobs.”
I fervently hope that they all remember that…
BTW: “Got Democracy?”.
The Independent voters are falling away from Obama in droves. You hardcore lefties would vote for anything with a little “D” after it, and Obama knows it. You’d vote for Charles Manson if he was running as a Democrat. Why should Obama care what you think? He’s gotta get reelected, and that means he’s gotta keep his eye on those Independent voters, and right now, they’re fleeing from him.
Vote independently, widen your horizons, and maybe Obama and others will pay attention to you. Right now, given your rigidity and monolithicism, nobody need pay attention to you, and certainly not an opportunistic political hack like Obama.
You know Obama is in trouble when his own defenders compare him to Michael Vick.
Even George Stephanopolis is telling him the best thing he can do is stop being President for two weeks.
This freak show is only going to get worse but a small benefit will be watching everyone who treated this clown as the second coming slowly realize what they’ve wrought.
I’m a liberal dem and at this point, I’m disappointed in everyone.We can’t have it all right now, the votes aren’t there from the blue scum and even some that I would consider reasonable in other areas. Lets face it, people; even though this is a national issue, they’re worried about being re-elected in their own districts and states.
If we can get a national exchange, that will take care of anyone who has pre-x and it will make premiums reasonable. Many people who can’t afford individual and small group rates would be able to afford exchange premiums.Raise Medicaid eligibility to 200% of the poverty level and allow those who are unemployed to enroll in Medicaid without having to spend every dime they have before they’re eligible. Right now, all you can have as an asset is your house.Charge a small premium. For those people who don’t want to enroll in a health plan, don’t make them. All of these things would cost the government very little money but would help a lot of people. I believe we should keep pushing for a public option but this would be such a great advance.Let’s not lose it all for one part, no matter how important that part is. How the insurance companies could trash any of this, I don’t know but I’m sure they will.
Andrea Minier:
“I’m a liberal dem and at this point, I’m disappointed in everyone….Raise Medicaid eligibility to 200% of the poverty level and allow those who are unemployed to enroll in Medicaid without having to spend every dime they have before they’re eligible.”
We should talk.
I want you to do some things for me. Find out how much it costs to get laser vision correction in your area.
In mine it runs about $1500 for both eyes.
Why is that? Because not all insurance programs cover the procedure, so those who provide it have to charge what the market will bear.
Want another interesting fact? Look up how much a surgical breast augmentation or cosmetic nose-job cost.
Except in cases of disfigurement, no private plans and certainly no government ones cover these procedures.
So they are affordable for John and Jane Q. Public, are they not?
(And I don;t know of any plastic surgeons who are driving old beaters and living in trailer parks…you?)
The point is that WHENEVER the government subsidizes something…anything, the costs of that thing are going to skyrocket, while the quality goes down the ($500 seat) toilet.
No-one would buy a KIA for #100,000, but if Uncle Sam would give you a $95,000 trade in allowance for your old Taurus, those KIAs would sell like hotcakes.
The level of denial combined with blind delusion here explains why Obama is losing ground in the polls. With friends like these who needs enemies???
“People need to stop running down Obama. It is just like with OJ,” says Lester. Huh, Obama is just like OJ? Really?
“He (Obama) is owned by Wall Street. He stands for nothing. It was obvious all along. As John Pilger says, Obama is a creation of corporate marketing..” babbles Emma. My God, Emma you must have just beamed in from an Alternative Universe #9. And John Pilger? Pathetic. Is OJ your hero too?
“Just like Clinton, run as a progressive, govern as a corporatist.” Sez Bob Johnson, also from Emma’s Alternative Unverse #9. Bob and Emma are so far Left that Arlen Specter must look like a later day Barry Goldwater to them.
“A few Blue Dogs have got to go. I may not ever donate to Obama again, but I certainly know the names of the dogs in congress who need to be voted out in Primaries.” Howls mannapt. Good idea, mannie, eliminate that part of the Democrat base which holds the center intact. I think I can hear K Rove laughing out loud.
“Obama is playing rope-a-dope, he has barely begun punching back, the fight doesn’t really start until September,” dreams Jotham Stavely. Yeah, Obama sure has roped up a dope, alright.
“The president’s drop in numbers is due to not pushing his agenda hard enough and not vice versa.” Claims Chris The Fold. Chris, it ain’t how hard you push in politics, but the way that you push that counts. See rope-a-dope above.
“A politician should know the formost rule in governing. Never turn off the base that put you in office.”, says RJ1008. True. But, fact is, you are too far left to be the base for anything right of Hugo Chavez, dude.
“+70% of Americans want the public option.” Says Kathleen Hussein. Uh huh. Must be drinking the Fact Checkin’ Kool-Aid at the Rope-a-Dope White House picnic.
“But I am hard pressed to find evidence that he’s (Obama) sneak’in one over.” Gasps David P. William. Senility trumps perception.
“I’d rather go after the “Blue Dogs” than Obama. Every one of them should be voted out at the first opportunity, and we should all work together to get that done..” shouts Donna Hoffman, another vote for political suicide. Man, you people are really a cabal of political savvy wiz-kids. Either that or Donna is a Rovian counter-agent.
“I would wager a months salary that things will be better.” bets Soonerman. He’s got a point, they could hardly get worse.
“I am loyal and will always be. I know whats best for the country but the country doesn’t know it.” Drivels Obamabot. That’s true Enlightenment rational thinking, all right! Combined with a deep respect for constitutional democracy. And they say all the religious nutters are on the right?
“You facists are bad for the country and I can’t wait until we get rid of all the nazi conservatives…” says the religious nutter, Obamabot. Wait a second. Don’t get all wee weed up. I thought only evil-monger mobs called people Nazi?
Jeez, I hope OJ shows up with a rope (or somethin’) soon.
Any time in history, on any subject that influences change at this level and will disturb the GREED factor in this nation and focus on HEALTH, WELLNESS OR BALANCE is going to rock the boot…in hopes of scaring the American public into submission….ONE MORE TIME…this is the time to say YES to change and everything hss to start somewhere. This is NOT about Obama. This is about the American citizen and our values. Time to wake up and support the future for our children in ways that we never have.
All these poll fluctuations mean nothing. This is just the result of GOP fear mongering and disinformation. Read history to see when where that combination was used. 1933 Germany, Soviet Union, East Germany, North Korea and the list goes on. Republicans have it mastered. Meanwhile as the economy continues to stabilize, home prices rise, the middle class tax cuts take hold, the stimulus money makes its way through the economy, and comprehensive and intelligent healthcare reform is enacted, those poll numbers will perk right up. Also as people see more and more of this radical fringe that runs the GOP.
cool burn baby burn ! This guy is a total buffoon, and the far left see’s it’s only chance slipping away..:-) a wise man once said his numbers are going down faster than barney frank at a gay bar…. now sit back and watch your only 4year term fall apart…lol
Obama and the Democrats should realize it is the Independents who put them into office. The very same people they stand to screw up with their version of healthcare. There is just the RUSH to pass any healthcare reform. Nobody is asking where are you going to get all those doctors and nurses to treat the patients. Nothing has been said on how they expect to pay for it. As of the medical panels, while, it is true that nothing is mentioned about terminating poor Grandma, do you really want a bureacrat telling you that you cannot have an MRI or an Angiogram for instance because it costs too much? Who are you going to turn to then, when your life hangs in the balance? While, not stated in the bill itself, it is implied that those panels will decide what people get in medical services. Not your doctor or even you! Now if you screw us Independents come 2010, there will be hell to pay at the ballot box! Your choice chumps!
Kathleen Hussein in Maine | August 21st, 2009 at 03:50 pm
Compromise, shmompromise. +70% of Americans want the public option. The Dems are losing faith and patience. The Blue Dogs have us over a barrel. You give the Republicans an inch, they take 100 miles. Time to LBJ-up and get it done. Because it’s right.
THIS IS PURE NONSENSE.. less than one half of the idiots even know what a public option is..and when they know they don’t want anything to do with it.
I don’t think we’re going to get “comprehensive” reform when Obama wants to fudge the requirements. That’s why I’m angry. During the campaign, the reform had to have a public option; now, he’s backing away as fast as he can. Of course, this changes my support of him. I’m 63 and don’t have too many years left to make sure the next generation of my family has the medical care they need and deserve–and have experienced in many poorer countries during their travels. I’ve given up on changes for those my age–we have to make it to Medicare age or lose everything if we get sick. I accept that, but I don’t accept a bait and switch political campaign.
Robert Rundbaken:
“This is just the result of GOP fear mongering and disinformation. Read history to see when where that combination was used. 1933 Germany, Soviet Union, East Germany, North Korea and the list goes on. Republicans have it mastered.”
Wow…just wow! Y’know, THIS is the the problem that many of us have with government spending. It’s not really the AMOUNT of money spent, necessarily, but what we get back in return.
I give you Mr. Rundbaken’s jaw-droppingly ignorant screed above as an example of an utter and complete waste of public monies spent on his edumacation.
Need I remind anyone else here that all of the political entities he cited above had in common statist collectivist Socialist governments?
About as far as from the Republican Party in either it’s “Rockefeller Country Club” OR it’s “Christian Populist Conservative” flavors as can be gotten.
Not satisfied to debase himself by such a gob-smackingly public display of know-nothingness, Mr. Rundbaken goes on to exhort the Faithful:
“Meanwhile as the economy continues to stabilize, home prices rise, the middle class tax cuts take hold, the stimulus money makes its way through the economy, and comprehensive and intelligent healthcare reform is enacted, those poll numbers will perk right up.”
That’ll be right about the time blue monkeys fly out of Obama’s nether regions and unicorns are seen fluttering around inside the Capitol dome.
Instead of babling on about insuring millions of uninsured, many of whom are illegal aliens, why not open up the health insurance market and make it a national market? Competition reduces rates! Total cost to the tax payer nearly $0.00. No debt, no special interests just good old fashion competition. Look what happened to auto insurance rates when the government allowed interstate competition. Answer, rates dropped and services improved.
Second, instead of trying to replace Medicare and medicade with a massive new and government run therefore inefficent system,how about they vigorously go after fraud which is rampent. Cost of enforcement will be far lower. Increasing penalties on these types of crime has $0.00 cost, just amend the law so that first offense is punishable with 5 years in a federal penitenary and 150% of the amount defrauded as the fine. Modifying the RICO act could allow the government to go after all ill-begotten gains particularly when there is a pattern of abuse.
Lastly, Remove all earmarks or publicize who added what to the bill. This is another broken Obama campaign promise. Make special interest groups who add to the bill stand up on CSPAN and explain how their additions to the health bill helps both the individual patient and the country. Again very low cost, and it forces those embedded in the bill to come clean.
There are three suggestions that will increase the availablity and quality of health insurance/health care, reduce the massive fraud in the existing systems, and cost the American taxpayer next to nothing over the next 10 years.
It begs the question, nearly no cost vs. $900 billion over ten years, what would you rather leave to your children?
If Obama had a brain in his head he would do the smart thing and back off a plan that is clearly not wanted by a majority of Americans. The fact that he just wants to push things through without anyone having a clue whats being voted on is evidence. If this was truly about health care and not the takeover of our country he could see that the best way to have gone about this would have been to put a few things on the table at a time. This, in addition to getting people working again would have got the ball rolling and given other things a chance. This is clearly about socialism and nothing else. He could have insured every ubninsured American for a year for lesss than a tenth of the un-stimulus money…but I guess that was better spent figuring why pigs smell bad! And you liberals wonder why people are suggesting you all see psychiatrists
Kay Snow-Davis:
“This is about the American citizen and our values. Time to wake up and support the future for our children in ways that we never have.”
Quite…by bankrupting them before they have a chance to misspend THEIR childrens’ legacy.
Let me ask you something in all honesty.
If you think that everyone who wants it should be able to afford health insurance, would you support a comprehensive across-the-board tax cut on everyone and everything, with corresponding spending cuts, so that people would have the money to buy their own insurance if they so chose to? (There ARE those who choose NOT to, since the new IPhone is so neat and the cellular bill is so large, y’know)
If you grew this economy by 10%, how many millions of people would no longer NEED public assistance to buy health care insurance?
See, it seems to me that the Left isn’t so hot for giving people the means and the power and the responsibility to make their own choices, (unless that choice is to have an abortion).
The choice of what school to send their kids to or which doctor to go to, or the choice to not have a union shoulder its way into their workplace, or the choice of exercising their right to keep and bear arms…these are issues where the Left is about anything BUT choice for the normal citizen.
I love reading blogs, because you can tell who has already lost the arguement. My first debate teacher in HS used to chide our team by saying, “If you make it personal and start insulting your opponents rather then sticking to the topic and convincing them of your point, then you have lost absolutely.” Hello Mr. Obamabot?
How did Civil Rights or the Environmental Movement happen? It was a mass popular push, broad-based, bottom up, that forced legislative change against legislators’ will (Civil Rights Act 1968 and Clean Air/Water Acts). It didn’t come from the top down. Real change never, ever comes from the top down. Business interests want the public to be quiet and docile, teaching us, subtly, that the extent of our political involvement is to vote in elections. And although Obama was elected on a wave of popular support, insurance and pharma are beating down doors with $1 mil per day. But we know the majority of people support the reforms Obama proposes. WE NEED TO STAND UP AND DEMONSTRATE MAJOR SUPPORT FOR THESE REFORMS.
Business wants you to be disgruntled and politically inactive. And so, it works if you give up on the Democrats, or any representative. This isn’t over yet. I believe Obama is practically begging the majority to get up and actively show support for real health care reform. It is a test. It’s a test to see whether we’ll stand up, and Obama went all-in on it. So get off your blogging *** and help a brother out.
Holy moly! I’ve finally found the place that all 5 of the Obama supporters have been hiding. I have never met anyone face to face that will admit to voting or supporting the Kenyan. The public option is a joke. Name one thing the government runs correctly. Why waste all of this money on insurance for immigrants or the lazy bums who don’t work and don’t want it any way? I really don’t know anyone who doesn’t have health insurance. No kidding.
I agree with the idea that Obama is too smart to be allowing the Repubs to bust his chops on this. He is waiting, waiting, waiting… and then will make his move. He simply can’t allow this to go forward w/o a public option. That’s the entire point. He is biding his time and waiting until the time is right. I simply can’t believe that the man who ran such a masterful campaign is just fumbling about, wringing his hands and wondering how the GOP can be “playing” him. He’s letting them fire all their cannons, get all their goodwill (just as McCain got his “bump” after naming Palin), and then when things settle down and people have vented, he’ll make his appeal and get the job done.
It could also be that they are floating the “we’re backing away from the public option” idea in order to get folks riled up and fired up on the left. isellpower is a sad creature indeed.
And the delusions just keep pouring in:
“This is about the American citizen and our values. Time to wake up and support the future for our children in ways that we never have.” Says Kay Snow-Davis….Hang on a minute. It’s about American values, but we’re suppose to do things “in ways that we never have” before??? Sounds like you hope to change American values into something different. A bit like a 1960’s soap commercial, new and improved American values.
“the votes aren’t there from the blue scum…even though this is a national issue, they’re worried about being re-elected in their own districts and states.” Whines a rather confused Andrea Minier. Blue scum? That’s evilmonger mob talk, dear. And about that getting re-elected in a democracy thing, I believe that was a feature of the American Constitution…some detail about representational government…might want to brush up on your 6 th grade civil lessons again.
“You’d vote for Charles Manson if he was running as a Democrat. Why should Obama care what you think?” says the aura of truth. Hey, that’s below the belt! Dems, especially Lester, might vote for OJ, sure. But Charles Manson. I doubt it.
“Emanual got these guys their jobs.” Says Rob. Sure, Chicago politics is corrupt, but I doubt the Chicago mob’s reach extended into deep into Congress before mid-January, 2009. Rob’s historical sequence of reality is inverted and reversed. It should read “Emanual will cost the Democrats control of Congress in 2010.”
“You don’t think racism has anything to do with the slam on Obama…Obama will always have our support. No matter what you peeple say.” Says Lester, the guy thinks Obama and OJ are morally equivalent. (God, that was a bad meme, Lester.) So, Lester, a nation of 85% non-blacks voted Obama into office with a landslide, but now 200-something days later the same country has gone all racist on him? Uh huh. Well, OJ was found innocence.
I do agree with Lester on one thing. He is definitely NOT living in the post-racial era.
“This is just the result of GOP fear mongering and disinformation. Read history to see when where that combination was used. 1933 Germany, Soviet Union, East Germany, North Korea and the list goes on. Republicans have it mastered.” Lectures Dr. Rober Rundbakalev. You left out Chicago and Massachusetts. And get yer Orwellian PC lingo right, it’s Evilmonger Mobs in Denial over Checked Facts. Although, it’s a bit of a Freudian slip to bring up the Soviets, Norks and the good life behind the Iron Curtain in a discussion on socializing the US medical system. No? Bobski you are a real, real funny guy!
“I’m 63 and don’t have too many years left to make sure the next generation of my family has the medical care they need and deserve–and have experienced in many poorer countries during their travels.” Says Cheryl Johnson. Hello? Many poorer countries have better health care than the US??? Oh, you mean like Cuba and Venezula? You and Hugo ought to get together and list other countries with better medical systems than the US, let’s see: Canada, Russia, Mexico, Great Britain, France, North Korea, Rundbakistan, etc.
It is amazing that so many people have made a decision about Obama’s presidency so early in his term. At this point in his term, Bush had yet to face 911 and was still trying to downplay the “election.” Give Obama the time he needs to establish some “change.” I’m starting to suspect some folks elected him to be a fall guy or a patsy for the culprits who really got us into this mess.
I couldn’t agree with you more Andrew. Having just spent 2 days at the health department trying to get my childrens records changed from one state to another, A public health care option is not going to work. In the two hours i was there the first day only 3 patients were seen. If any private doctor had taken that much time to give an immunization he’d have been out of business in less than a year. Now I was only there to drop my old state forms off and have them transferred to a new state form. I was told they were all complete and to give them a day to put it in their system. I thought that was fair enough. I went to pick the forms up the next day and I was told they couldn’t do my son’s forms because on his first round of immunizations 11 years ago he was given 1 of his shots 4 days to early and he would have to have another or I would need to find a doctor and they could overide it. This was 3 oclock in the afternoon. I called all the doctors in the area and they couldn’t see him so I picked my son up brought him to the health department to get them to give the immunization. I was the only one in the waiting room but I waited 35 minutes before I was acknowledged and when the women went to get the doctor it was too late and I was told I couldn’t get it that day. The gov. just has a way of making simple issues really really hard. Public option needs to come off the table. Insure the uninsured but don’t make the company I’m working for decide it would be easier or cheaper to drop the private and go public. I want to stay as far away from gov. run anything. Whether its the post office-the court system or public transit or health care. They just can’t run these things effiently.
Lets look at AMTRAK…broken. VA? Constantly underfunded while giving $23 million in bonuses yet letting vets languish in poverty. Post Office? Hmm, keeps costing more and more to mail a simple letter while services are going to be reduced and offices closed. And you want this government to take care of ALL your health issues? Dream on.
Haters stop playing. Why does Obama have to show youi his grades? He was president of the Harvard Law Review. You sound dumb.
As for his so called supporters you have no loyalty or patience- Obama is much smarter than you think. He really needs your support now. The Republicans would love nothing more than to see you divided so they can conquer. Use your brainsi Obama will prevail in the end. You sound like whiney little kids.Get over yourself. You sound pathetic.
Obama campaigned on a mantra of “change from ‘politics’ as usual.” THEn, once in office began fighting like hell to maintain the policies set in place by the Bush Whitehouse. IT’S TIME TO TELL THE EMPEROR HE HAS NO CLOTHES! Politics as usual to maintain a status quo of mediocrity is NOT “change we can believe in”!!!!
“He was president of the Harvard Law Review.”
Wow, I’ll bet he wrote some pretty interesting things then. Where can I read his papers? Certainly an institution like Harvard would be proud to publish the writings of one of its alumni to show the quality of education it is capable of producing. I hear they even have internets there now.
Got a link for us Kalmah?
“Real change never, ever comes from the top down.” gropes Chris Gropps and he’s absolutely right. Change comes from “mass popular push, broad-based, bottom up.” Maybe Chris hasn’t noticed that Obama is leader of the free world now and the Dems control both houses of Congress. The change Dems command is, by definition, top down. Now those astroturfing exoburbanites with their evilmonger unpatriotic dissenting, that’s something from lower down the food chain.
“Business interests want the public to be quiet and docile, teaching us, subtly, that the extent of our political involvement is to vote in elections.” No, actually that was Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Steny who said that, Chris, and they were none too subtle.
I know it’s confusing. Dissent and disruption WAS patriotic duty after the Bushitler regime stole the 2000 election, but now dissent and disruption is Evilmonger Un-American activity to be reported to a fishy White House website. Got that?
“I believe Obama is practically begging the majority to get up and actively show support for real health care reform.” You didn’t get the memo, Chris. Obama does NOT want the majority of Americans to get up and get active, it makes for such unpleasant town hall meetings. It’s time to sit down and STFU while Obama has a conversation with the teleprompter, a few hand picked party hacks, Fact Checked by the White House Bureau of Factology.
“It is a test. It’s a test to see whether we’ll stand up, and Obama went all-in on it.” Yeah, well people are trying to stand up all right. Jeez, Chris, tell me you don’t represent the average level of conscious awareness in the average voting citizen.
Philipmeister chimes in: “I agree with the idea that Obama is too smart to be allowing the Repubs to bust his chops on this.” Phillip, the Repubs don’t even need to exist for Obamacare to implode. See semi-comatose Gropper above, without grassroots support real change never comes from the top down. Obama has been playing rope-a-dope with himself.
“I simply can’t believe that the man who ran such a masterful campaign is just fumbling about, wringing his hands and wondering how the GOP can be “playing” him.” Perhaps it’s time to have a sensitive End-of-Political-Life-Care conversation. First comes the Denial stage. Then the Anger. Then Wee Weed-up Panic. Then the mid-term elections.
Oh, wait I forgot the paranoid Conspiracy Theory stage, somewhere between Denial and Wee Weed-up: “I’m starting to suspect some folks elected him to be a fall guy or a patsy for the culprits who really got us into this mess,” says Air Force Veteran. Uh-huh. Air force. Riiiiight. Capt. Strangelove, perhaps?
Ha ha even the Democrats have figured out the guy is an empty suit.
It’s sad that those of us who paid attention to the things the media hid have to pay the same price as you fools who voted for him.
President Obama is working too hard to include republicans who are not going to cooperate in any way, shape or form. They are going to be against the whole thing even if a lot of the things they did not want are removed for them. Nevertheless, he is trying not to alienate republicans because that is the way he is. So far he has not gotten really fed up, but I am sure he will after this health care reform is voted on with no republicans on board. Why do we have to put up with republicans who are the very ones who supported every criminal action of Bush and Cheney without a peep. These are really corrupt republicans who need to be thrown out of office. It is time to vote in some republicans who have good sense and want to be bipartisan.
All of this (opposers to Health Care Reform)since the 2008 election has to do with ‘change’ which is “SHAKING THE TREE”and look what is falling out of its hiding–TRUTH stands, untruth revealed from the polls.
The “Polls” does not heal the wounds of the millions of Americans without the right to what they have payed into the system and have waited so long for this moment to health treatment. The wealthy need to realize that this is payback time for those decades of healthier living on the backs of the unfortunate.
Too many refute the idea of ‘Health Care Reform’because it will dig into their pharmaceuticale drug habits of prosperity. The feeling wears off and control is on the rise again and made available for another adventure into the inner self.
Men,women and children are in need–”think on these things”.
President Obama should stick to what he believes in because the country did not vote for Change if the Republicans agree with it. There may be some room for debate but he has the majority and he should USE IT.
Enough is enough. Bush wasn’t shy about using his power and he used it for all the wrong reasons. Health care reform is right for us right now. It is NOT socialism. It is common sense because many families and businesses can’t afford to pay what is being charged anymore
P.S. May the Lord God almighty intervene-that is what is about to happen. President Obama is a hard working man for YOU and not your enemy because you are your worst enemy. So, point the finger as far right as you can and see.
Seems that many blue dog democrats, independents and even moderate republicans have seen what fools they were to vote for obama. The man had a slick PR machine, along with a mighty foreign money war chest. He has had the press in his pocket, (lapdogs as I call them), who are loosing readers daily. obama has one goal, that is to destroy American capitalism. Anyone who could not see that this man is a fraud is a bigger fool than they know. Americans who care about this country will stop this insanity, no matter what means it takes to accomplish it.
Used2bdemocrat
Vicki just telling Republicans “I want your cooperation and vote” without allowing them to shape the legislation is NOT bipartisanship.
Marian I am not wealthy and I’m not sure how having a job and paying for my family’s insurance is “living on the backs of the unfortunate”. How does one live off those who are “unfortunate” and thus have no assets to “live on the backs of”?! Maybe my judgement is clouded by my “pharmaceuticale drug habits of prosperity”?
John please name one thing the government has taken control of that has then become more affordable. The issue of health care reform will never work without tort reform this is the root if the problem.
Fish in a barrel you guys need to raise your game.
Got a link for us Kalmah?
Damn, Truth and light, how uninterested you are in either!
That aspect of his bio has been out there for years now and you don’t know anything at all about it???
Sounds like Used2bedemocrat was always Wannabelibertarian.
What a waste of a life.
Vicki are you kidding me? Why would you be calling for the Republicans to be bipartison? Shouldn’t it go both ways? I would love to see both sides be more bipartison but unless the so-called global warming freezes he!! anytime soon I doubt that will be happening.
I do not want a public option. I do want reform…just not the kind they are pushing so darn hard for. What is the rush? Why not hear people out…take their concerns into consideration…and then come to us with a well planned out plan. I do think opening up the health insurance market would be a great start. The next would be to stop all the abuse and fraud. I’m tired of doing dictation of people coming in because their arm was numb….oh, it was because they were driving around with their arm hanging out the window! They don’t care, they aren’t paying for it. I can barely afford having a high deductible policy for my family and then if I do have to take someone in to the clinic…I get to pay the entire bill. So just yesterday I get a letter saying my insurance is going up another $60 a month…oh yeah….and the nice cap and trade bill they want to send through will raise my electric bill. And more than the cost of a frickin postage stamp like Obama says it will. Thanks, but I will trust what my electric company guy says more than ANY stupid politician.
I’m glad that so many of you think this is the best deal ever, but you don’t live in the same kind of reality that a lot of us do.
Why not take a step back and wait for something better. I don’t want Canada, I don’t want VA. Have any of you ever been to a VA hospital? I have.
I’m an American and I want better than what they are offering.
oddjob…..2010 will show that this country is center right, not looney left. Futhermore, I have a hunch that the bluedogs will grow in number not diminish as many on this site hope.
used2bdemocrat
oddjob a paean to Obama by the NYT (two hops from a Google search you are thorough!) is not the same as scholarly writings in the HLR.
Typically the president of the HLR is chosen because he is the best writer or has interesting ideas. Obama was neither but as the NYT says “He’s a really swell guy”.
Well, as far back as “economic deregulations” to “play time and getting the hand caught in the cookie jar” to “oops, I made a shamefull mistake with surplus” has ended. A point in time declared that “you can fool some of the people some of the time, but, not the same people all the time”. The polls are simply statistics, yet has anyone really seen the polls?
Realize that, government, democracy, democratics are the people and never in HISTORY has there ever been a man, President of the United States who challenges for progress and is not a ‘dummy’ with logical ethical thinking on behalf of the people to whom is represented. In the end-Health Care Reform WILL be changed for the better.
yes the liberal democrats are angelical and without sin just ask jc obama tell the religious leaders about sin and lies , he is god himself well your god any way. my god does not murder the unborn before you start with the war its obamas war now seems he inherited it and he has kept it going with no signs its going to end any time soon, were is the our rage kind of make you liberals in to hypocrites, as soon as bush left no more anti war, no crying about war, the killing. obama is the war monger now the killing is still going on but not a anti war liberal to be seen
rush limbaugh! leader of the free world.
Obama isn’t going to be able to blame the Republicans if Health Care Reform fails. So far all he has done is continue Bush initiatives. The one demonstrable Democratic initiative, the public option, will be his and the party’s Waterloo.
Jack Sheet ………..I doubt many things wrote about obama, nothing has ever been substantiated, which is contrary to my critical thinking, which in conclusion gives great reason to believe he is the biggest fraud ever placed perpetrated on the American populace.
used2bdemocrat
70% want public health care option? kathleen must be smoking some of that medical marijuana or sniffing her own b.o. I know of no one (and I travel in circles from gay to straight, from religious to atheists, from rich to poor) who wants a public option that has a brain in their head.
Marian I can’t top that. You win.
They let you blog from the psych ward?
Lloyd you misunderstand. 70% of the people at Kathleen’s drum circle put down their doobie and said “I support the public health care option…what is that?”
Jack…..I can picture that scene. You forgot to add that their eyes are also blank.
Used2bdemocrat
Nothing is going wrong with Obama’s base. There is something going wrong with Obama though.
Just read all of these conclusions. The average liberal is usually overweight, does not believe in themselves, needs government to take care of them, shuns personal responsibility and has trouble making it in the real world. That is why they are teachers, ect. Obama is already has the lowest poll rankings of any president at this time in his term, even worse than Carter. And you have not seen anything yet. You may never see another Democratic President in your lifetime.
Meanwhile, look at this! It’s really unexpected. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgCGMVGCD1Y
Maybe Obama having been pwned on healthcare was not good for his polls? I can’t believe Obama was outmaneuvered, outwitted, politically beaten by someone who’s supposed to be dumb? So if she wins this round as an average citizen simply by posting something on the internet, what does that make such a smart, Ivy-educated man like Obama with his powerful office and totus and bully pulpit? What is going on??!!! Is Obama way stupider than the reviled ’stupid’ & ‘irrelevant’ woman? GASP! Is Obama only good at campaigning and winning an election and an epic FAIL at leading?
Mark Cartwright,
Hmm, yeah, I agree nothing’s wrong with Obama’s base. MEANWHILE, look at the BASE of the Republicans. It is growing daily and gaining strength. Have you seen this spread??!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgCGMVGCD1Y
I just think Obama voters are less motivated now that they got a black, unexperienced, liberal, power-grabbing, god-complex-carrying, elitist, liar in office. I mean, his “base” were people who don’t get involved in politics in the first place. They only did and voted…you know, for their race-loving reasons, votes based on the color of skin (hey, that’s racist too! racists! racists for Obama!) while ignoring experience and all that (offered by Hillary Clinton, by the way).
Face it, Obamabots, come 2012 these lazy, apathetic, america-hating obama lovers could care less to go out and vote again. i’m sure the DNC will make up for it with voter fraud, though.
I am one of those who supported President Obama from day one — actually, I’ve been watching him since he was first running in Chicago. I still like him and respect him as a person, but I’m ready to jump ship. Not for the Rethuglicans, though. As a couple of posters have pointed out, noone should assume that all the independents are centrists.
I am unenrolled, and have been for decades. I’ve been a radical socialist since I was a teen (I’m 58 years old), way to the left of Bernie Sanders, never mind Dennis Kucinich. I stopped voting after McGovern’s defeat in 1972, and involved myself instead in socialist and grass-roots politics. I’ve only been voting for selected Democrats since Jesse Jackson began running for president, and he and Barack Obama were the only ones I felt I didn’t have to hold my nose for.
Man, have things changed. Aside from his waffling on health care and apparent abandonment of the public option and subsidies for the poor (I’d prefer single-payer anyway), the President has comfortably assumed the mantle of Iraq and Afghanistan, may expand the conflicts into Pakistan, and has opposed bringing the Bush era torturers, liars, and murderers to justice, while continuing to cover up the photos and truth about torture. As far as I’m conccrned, these transgressions have driven me further away from the Administration than my concerns about health care. He also seems ready to throw his left-wing and progressive supporters under the bus, like he did his pastor, while he begs and pleads for “bipartisanship” from Republicans and fascist scum who hate his guts, portray him as a Nazi, shout down democratic discussions about healthcare, and openly brandish semi-automatic weapons outside his speeches. (Does anyone seriously think that this almost suicidal regard for the “rights” of gun owners would have been tolerated at a presidential gathering under the Bush national security state?)
And is there anyone who remembers, when he was asked during the campaign how he would finance his (no longer) ambitious social programs, that he would do with the money saved (about $10-12 billion a month) by ending the war in Iraq? I know it’s still fairly early into his first term, but I for one am no longer impressed, and I think it’s time to head back to the meeting halls and the streets to fashion a real alternative to the Democratic/Republican/big business oligarchies. And maybe deal with the pukey little teabag fascists in the way they truly deserve.
2010 will show that this country is center right, not looney left
Yeah. Enjoy watching FauxNews.
You do realize how obvious that was, don’t you?
If you’re going to proclaim you prefer to listen to propaganda than follow reality that’s about the best you possibly could have done.
Nothing like spouting cant to show you don’t have anything of value to say!
Just wanted to fix a couple of embarrassing little typos in my post”As far as I’m conccrned” obviously should read “concerned”, and “he would do with the money saved” should have been “he would do so with the money saved”. I wouldn’t want to find myself in the company of the right-wingers who think everyone is stupid except their semi-literate selves. I know how to write, but it’s late and I’m tired. I wish someday these websites would provide posters with an editing option.
Jack you just answered your own question.No offense by the statement that does not apply to YOU. During the era of the Clintion administration, that is when the Doctors and the pharmeceutical firms were making their move and medicine (drugs) was the bait on the hook. It was not the technology as suggested but a way to control and profit. On the faces (backs)of others, people working paid into the system to get better healthcare instead found themselves being without with less and less of a paycheck, no service and insurance unbearable for any purpose to the hospital or clinical visits. The Bill got to the house before you did.Yet the wealthy are the $90 thousand 120 thousand and up range, providing specifics that require special attention.Bless them.
As far as infidelity to the “truth” and “light” those two agree. You’ll never see one with out the other.
A President who is popular when elected stays popular if he does nothing. It’s when he does the work of the Presidency that his popularity falters because the side that didn’t want him is doing it’s best to destroy him. And in the case of Democrats, we won’t give him the elbow room to do the job. I am sick to death of hearing the old saw about pressuring him to do his job. Obama doesn’t need any pressure and he has more political savvy than anyone who is commenting. He wants this as much or more than we do. He’ll give it his best. I know that in my heart and anyone who learns to listen with their heart will know the same. It may not be possible to get it all done the first time out, but if it is possible, he’ll get it done. Democrats always have yelled at him that he isn’t mean enough, but he seems to generally get the job done in his own way. As long as he’s in office, he won’t quit until he gets this done in the right way. However long it takes. He won’t quit. If we were smart, we’d build support for him instead of trying to tear him down all the time. One does not build a great bridge by continually chopping away at the supports.
Doomed.
Anything cranked out of congress will fail.
Why?
An egalitarian nice sounding pie in the sky ethical vision of success without a roadmap.
Admit it. No one can afford healthcare with confidence whoops. preexising. Oh that med is off formulary. Oh new deductible. Whoops.
Why doomed? – The payor is 100 miles from the benificiary. This is no candy bar that just got doubled in price. – Too expensive? – it never effects the actual purchase. Insurance gives the illusion of not having to pay. Federal plans,all the worse.
Capitalism was thwarted long ago with employer funded health insurance. No disincentive to stop consuming.
A runaway economy of medicine without constraint, whipped further into a medical spending frenzy by litiginous patients and their lawyers. No unspent dollar goes unpunished.Denial of anything is percieved and MD greed, HMO insurance greed, and struggled against. (almost sounds marxist no?)
Hopeless.
Doomed.
Within several decades medical spending will begin to cost so much cash that the shear mass of it will achieve critical mass to generate a black hole – sucking in the local solar system.
Stop it while there is time!
I’m a doctor, and I think the cost of all this is riduculous. The current medical economy is a preversion of greed. So many times i’ve sensed greedy litiginous personalities, demanding fearful types wanting it all. When will it end? New drugs, new treatments. I’ve observed some patients who will continue to demand until it comes directly out of their pockets.
By the way, my income, try less than 70K – and i work part time, 65 hours a week. How about you? My pager is on 24-7, and it is regularly going off at all times of the day. Think you can squeeze money out of me? Think working 70 hours produces so little with “rampant fraud”. Think again.
Why is it doomed?
Well who is driving this car anyways? I sure the @#@#$ isn’t me.
England ended 50 years of hideous waits by recently reforming thier socialist model. They involved a key stake holder. The physcians. Golly. What a concept.
It would have been better had they followed the soviet model with prompt execution of corrupt exploiters of the system. I’m not talking about executives, insurance, etc. I’m talking about reform of the key drivers of the current problem.
Put the prime responsibility where it belongs. Out of the hands of the lawyers, and back to the pocket books of those benefiting.
The prices will drop like rocks when patients say “I can afford that”
Once the insanity is unwound, and the soviets have been handsomely rewarded for their support of our healthcare by providing mysterious illnesses, and complimentary visits to siberia to deserving laywers – then the massive money generated can be used to help those who can’t, at a MUCH lower price.
I’d be happy to do my part. I like lawyers, so I think perhaps paintball in Siberia would be refreshing. The lawyers could be put to work as doctors as a sick form of poetic justice, thus ending the impending physician shortage being threatened by the current angst.
Another solution. Train policemen to work as doctors. It really would work better. They’ll know just what to do, and the rest can be gleaned by linkup to a doctor in india and 1/4 of what I cost.
If policemen worked the system, utilization would be nicely policed, and after who would want a bypass surgery from an angry policeman, with a surgeon in india telling him where to cut.Expenditure would be way down, and so would drug use,but I think you’d soon run out of policemen.
Nice vision.
Be careful what you wish for.
Each day in this presidency we see more proof that Hillary was the better choice. Every move Obama has made has been a mistake, from continuing Bush’s war to the half-assed stimulus plan to the Gates race fiasco to the contniuing debacle over health care. It’s very frustatrating to watch Obama set the stage for the Republicans to take back control of the Congress in 2010 and the presidency in 2012.
No need for the Repulbicans to divide you as some have said. You Democrats have full control and no one to blame but yourselves so now you start to blame people in your own party for your own obvoius weakness.
Remember the Iraq war that Obama was going to get us out of? Guess what nothing has changed we are still following the same plan as before?
And the poor poor **** out there that want to get married, you still have to fight with your states to get that right! The Messiah has not granted you that wish has he?
Do you really thing this cap and trade will be signed into law?
Do you really think any meaningfull healthcare changes will happen?
At this point Obama is starting to realize that if he wants to get elected again he is going to have to back off of those promises as well.
Well I didn’t vote for the dude. I am an independent- I vote after heavy research as to character and experience related to the job as commander in chief, and executive experience- all of which was absent in his resume’. I wanted to see changes, but nothing in hell would have convinced me to vote for a community/organizer, law professor and I could go on, but you see my point.
As to the healthcare reform, DISASTER is the only word I will use. Americans- numerous countries have tried various forms of this, and it hasn’t worked yet- please someone logically share with me, seriously, a country that uses various forms of a national health care system, or a system like a public option where they still maintain their quality (competition) and give you the option to see the dr you want.
I hope you like you like your change you bunch of despicable f****** M*****, because after he is done with this country a little change in your pocket is all you are going to have. Only a bunch of stupid f**** like you the people on this blog would support and vote for him. You managed to put in the highest position of power the most liberal democrat to ever hold presidency and actually thought that he is going to fix all your problems respect your liberties and not raise taxes or force or at least attempt to force any kind of mandatory health care plan on you that has been brewing by liberals for years prior. And I’m not even talking about the civil liberties that are being eroded every day with the great assistance from this administration. How many of you scumbags voted for him huh. Just 4 months ago everyone was ready to suck his d*** and cuff the b**** and now you don’t want him no more, well too bad you brought this obamination on yourself and unfortunately on everybody else and now deal with it. Hope when you all are f****** broke and are on the streets (yea his anti-foreclosure programs really helped the good responsible citizens) you remember those that told you not to vote for him and greatly enjoy your pocket change while you’re weeping into you coffee cup (because he doesn’t give a f*** about any of you. Your liberal heads are so far up you a** that you can see daylight from the back of you throat every time you open your mouth. Have a nice day. Thanks for ruining this country hope you’re happy.
Oh, meant to say The prices will drop like rocks when patients say “I can’t afford that”
Instead of The prices will drop like rocks when patients say “I can afford that”
It really is the main point. Couple price to decision to purchase, and market resistance will lower prices, and it really should.
Yep – I’ve been a huge Obama supporter, and he’s finally reduced me to “f*** him!”. GET A SPINE already!!!! Do what you we elected you to do!. Or are you already doing what you came for – cowtowing to corporate money and enjoy family vacations to Camp David and Martha’s Vineyard? I’m all for bi-partisanship, if that’s really your game, but PLEASE don’t sell your (our?) soul in the process.
“Herculano”…since you’re so concerned about correcting your typos, here’s a tip from a ’semi-literate right-winger”: You left out the hyphen in “Bush-era torturers”; otherwise, you have created a new species named “era torturers”.
I’m 55 & have known several “radical socialists” since I was a teen. To a person, they have been whiners, do-nothings, and drains upon society. So you want to “deal with the pukey little teabag facists in the way they truly deserve”, eh? Maybe with a rope? You certainly sound like one of the ‘thugs’ you purport to detest (”Rethuglicans”? Oh, how original and clever. Sounds like you have your MSNBC talking points down pat like a good little sheep).
What a big baby! Some people never grow up.
As a liberal my support for the public option hasn’t waned, in fact its even stronger now that the radical rightwing opposition is going ballistic.
It looks like big media and big business are tossing out lots of anti-health care reform articles in hopes of swaying the public into believing the winds of change are now blowing against us.
“The Blue Dogs have us over a barrel.”
And twas Hussein Bipartisanship Obama himself who naively gave them the effin barrel… to roll over Him… and us.
Whotta devout sucker clinging to His disastrous religion of bipartisanshit
The republican party was right about
1. Stopping integration (or keeping segregation)
2. Stopping Social Security
3. Stopping Medicare
It is common sense that they are right about stopping American’s choice of a public option.
We sent this big sweet-talking guy up to the plate to bat
cleanup for us but He refuses to take the bat off His shoulder,
He refuses to take even a timid swing
even though the count is already 0-2.
Ya thinks mebbe He’s really batting for
the Insurance company sponsored team…?
There ain’t gonna be no joy in Mudville, folks,
FOR THE MIGHTY OBAMA HAS STRUCK OUT
for another generation
Try to please everyone and you end up pleasing no one. Just stop it and push a strong healthcare bill WITH a public option. Obama’s pulls will drop like a rock if the bill doesn’t include the public option. These Blue Dogs must surely realize that they will be first on the chopping block with voters if the Democratic Party’s poll numbers get dragged way down. They HAVE TO go along with the public option.
Oops, I meant Obama’s polls
It ain’t rocket science, McGee. We gave them our votes in 2006 and they didn’t do anything. Hopeful, to borrow a word, we overwhelmingly gave them our votes in 2008 and they are governing with one finger in the air and another one up their butt. I thought elections were supposed to matter? They surely do when the Republicans win.
9-11 was an inside Job. The people who let it happen it control Obama just like they controlled Bush.
The Bailouts were an inside job too… oh wait, no, that happened in broad daylight. But just like Bush, Obama was all for it. He is a corporate tool.
Obama can say whatever he wants about working with the GOP, but he must act like they will vote against everything that he does. The republicans care only about themselves and not the American people. Treat the republicans like the lying racists that they are and pass a health care bill that helps the Americans most in need.
I must admit that what I have seen out of the Obama presidency has been disturbing to me. I am neither a Democrat or a Republican, I just stand for the one who is best suited to run for office. I never thought that I would see the day where our support for Israel would be questioned. I never thought that I would see the day where our country would turn it’s back on a country, namely Honduras, when it stood up for democracy and give our support to a leftist leader following in the footsteps of Castro and Chavez. I never thought that we would push socialist ideas (health care) on the greatest democracy in the world that has the greatest health care in the world. It is as though what used to be viewed as right in our country is suddenly wrong and what used to be wrong in this country is suddenly right. And the politicians wonder why people like me are so confused??????
Thanks for the memories, folks. So – Obama, and indeed, the entire Democrat leadership tries to bull this thing through…fails. And how does the left wing of their party respond ? Why – by demanding that they continue to bull this thing through. It really is HillaryCare all over again. These people will never be satisfied with just winning, much less compromise. They have to win and humiliate the opposition altogether. So much for bipartisanship. At the end of the day, how will Arlen Spector vote ? My, my, my, my, my – never thought I’s see the day when Spector and Snow defined the difference between a Blue Dog and a Republican. As the laws of political gravity reassert themselves, I do expect sanity to return to Washington DC, at least for awhile. This would be a good time to honor the memory of Daniel Patrick Moynihan.
What a joke if you really want to reform health care you need tort reform and maybe set up clinics for low income people so they don’t use the hospitals for non emergencies. Obama is a slick politician,that is all. Wake up America!!!!
I love how everyone is talking about how Obama is “rushing” Healthcare reform through. I am relatively young but healthcare has been an issue in EVERY SINGLE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION at least for the last 3 decades so the idea of reform is nothing new. And if the GOP really wanted reform (like Cantor et. al. claim) why didn’t they do anything when they were in power in Congress til ‘06 and in the executive till ‘08. The answer is obvious…they don’t care. My anger with the healthcare debate is rooted more in how it is being argued. I don’t understand why the President doesn’t simply ask the GOP who they think doesn’t deserve healthcare because that is their party position; that if you are poor you don’t deserve healthcare. You don’t deserve access to a doctor, you don’t deserve life saving medication. A public option is about health security for all Americans…not a takeover of your healthcare options but a safety net for those who are most vulnerable. Have a head and a heart people
Liberals all you are going to end up with is gov having all your financial info and mandate to carry health insurance.
The most frightening thing about the healthcare debate is that the only options being discussed currently benefit corporates or centralize power in the government. What worries me most is the potential to concentrate power in some sort of corpogovt blob against which we would be powerless.
Cash for clunkers. The government can’t even handle a rebate and we want them to handle our healthcare? Do you people not see this? Does it not scare the **** out of you? It does me!
Oh, and I love the Dems who have told the people that he doesn’t care if the majority of his constituents don’t want it….he will vote the way he wants.
I would have a lot more respect for any congressperson that would go against their party affiliation and vote for how their people want them to vote. But I guess I need to keep my rose-colored glasses in the drawer because I doubt that will ever happen.
I don’t know where you all live, but any poor people here are already on Medicaid and they are the ones abusing the system and making our costs sore. They govt only pays the clinic half (if that) of what the clinic visit actually costs….so who makes up the difference? Me. Although I pay a lot for a high deductible and I still have to pay the full amount of that office visit. So am I going to run to the emergency room on a weekend for a cold? Heck no. But they will because they aren’t paying for it. They even want prescriptions for a band-aid because they won’t have to pay for that either.
We can’t afford a family plan through my husband’s employer and I’m self-employed. In my state I have very few options for a health insurance company. Open it up, let me have more options, hopefully the competition will lower the prices.
Dr. C, I enjoyed reading your post. A lot of my fellow medical transcriptionists are losing their jobs to India workers. Wasn’t Obama going to do something about keeping jobs in America? I have standards and will not work for a company that outsources overseas.
Start with tort reform and opening up healthcare and then see what else needs to be done. What’s wrong with baby steps….as long it is moving forward.
Letter to President Obama
Mr. Obama – If I were President:
Onions would have zippers and every thorn would have a rose,
And chocolate would finally be declared an essential vitamin.
And Rain would always fall between 2 a.m. & 4 a.m.,
But never on weekends, or on parades or Little League games.
And every child would dream of sunny skies and long, warm, summer afternoons
But never of skinned knees or snarling dogs or Mommy & Daddy out of work.
And parents could watch over healthy babies asleep in their beds
But not despair as jobs and health insurance and houses and beds were taken away.
And government would represent the people that voted for them,
But not the companies that had bought and paid for them.
And we would call this The United States of America, Land of Opportunity, Land of the Free,
But never The United States of America, Inc., sold to the highest bidder.
If I were President, Mr. Obama.
J.C.:”Cash for clunkers. The government can’t even handle a rebate and we want them to handle our healthcare? ”
You’d have a lot more cedibility (that means you’d be more trustworthy) if you didn’t start by quoting Rush. The cash for clunker has been the most successful program the Government has ever run and I am sure if Republicans were running it they’d have handed out all the money by now, just like in Iraq where they handed three semi loads of cash ($1 billion) to a group and didn’t even get a receipt. But Democrats are careful with the people’s money, they like to get receipts and verify those that are getting money SHOULD be getting that money.
The issue at hand is really very simple. Its the monied interests against the rest of us. When Sarah Palin makes mention of “the real America” she is talking about rich conservative republicans with 6 figure incomes and most probably 7 figure assets.And anything that isnt directly for them they are against, which is, you guessed it, health care for the peasants. Which brings to mind an interesting observation about republicans, you can always predict their position on anything based on this; if its for the middle class they are against it, if it benefits the rich they embrace it. Try it, it works every time. We (the american people) are unwittingly in a class war, where one party, the republican party, is unquestionably against us, and the other party, the democratic party, is bought and paid for by the oligarchy to the point of being laughable as an agent of change. They put on a little play for us, and create some drama to give us the illusion that we have a political process, when in reality that process was compromised many years ago. In short, its all BS. Just try to live as good a life as you can but dont take fiction for non fiction. And thats what “change for the middle class” is, fiction.
Americans unite! Never reelect an incumbent. Career politicians are the greatest threat our country has ever faced. Our founding fathers set up a system that would insure a 90% turnover at every election. We now reelect 90% at every election. The average American can change all that by never relecting anyone, regardless of party.
When will the rest of you learn. Obama is a politician…he doesn’t care about you. Health care isn’t going to help the poor folks, it’s going to keep them fat and lazy. What would help poor people is some self-respect and jobs.
I think Obama’s biggest problem is that he wants to be centrist and a bipartisan leader, while Republicans and Conservative and their idiotic town hall shouters, can simply not be reasoned with. It’s like trying to make smart decision and making a few really stupid ones, just to appease the stupid people. He is wasting is time and effort and thus alienating his base and I hope he realizes that soon.
Henk…I didn’t realize I quoted someone else. I don’t listen to Rush. That is how I feel and it’s what I said.
Let’s wait a month and ask the car dealerships just how great this was.
And this helped the economy how?
Haven’t the Democrats held the majority for a few years now? Why is all the blame on the Republicans just because the prez was.
Dems haven’t handed out any free money at all this administration yet have they. Oh wait, where is all the stimulus money and where did all the money for the banks go? Does anyone know? The blame goes both ways and I will blame Repubs just as much as Dems. They are all the same.
The election of Obama was tantamount to writing the obituary for a formerly great Nation. Obama has been exposed so many times for misrepresentation of known facts, how can anyone now trust the man to abide by any commitment? As the recent presidential polls verify, the American people are far more perceptive than Obama bargained for. Socialism, of which Obama’s Socialized Health Care is only a small part, has been an abject failure in every Nation where it has been implemented, so why should we be surprised that, in total, Obama style Socialism would be any different. It’s Obama’s intention to destroy the free-enterprise structure that has made America the most prosperous Nation in the history of mankind; and, to replace it with the Socialist structure from his native Kenya. A structure where the elite such as Obama and his clan travel and subsist in luxury, as illustrated by the unbounded extravagance on the taxpayer dime by his wife Michelle, while the masses wallow in the misery of a system that confiscates the products of their labor so as to acheive Obama’s coveted “redistribution of the wealth”. Obama is in fact the “Reparator In Chief”; and, will willingly resort to the thuggery techniques that he employed as a “Community Agitator” in Chicago to achieve his objectives. If left unrestrained, Obama will do irreparable harm to the American economy. Greg Neubeck
Palin represents millionaires? Is that what she was doing working on her husband’s fishing boat?
Braveheart you have it wrong the Dems are owned by Soros the Republican fascist tea party memebrs like myself are hard working people who want to get ahead. If we turn into a socialist country everybody will be equal, alright. Equally poor and miserable!
And everybody on this board who says the poor don’t have healthcare have not been to an emergency room. The ER is packed with indigent people who use the ER as a cold and flu clinic in addition to life-threatening injuries. All off them are treated! Guess who is paying for these “unfortunate” people? Anybody who is at the hospital who pays their bill or has insurance pays extra to cover the uninsured. You’re welcome!
Not a single person on this board or in Washington has mentioned that many (if not MOST!) of the uninsured are that way by choice. I know when I was 23 I didn’t think I needed it and I was fine. Did that make me a poor, unfortunate uninsured victim of oligarchic health care oppression or whatever? No it made me an irresponsible 23 year old who felt tequila made me bulletproof.
Young people often (foolishly) choose to go without insurance. A huge horde of illegals sends back several hundred dollars on average each month to Mexico. These people can afford a basic policy but they CHOOSE to free ride on the rest of us. And it was ever so.
Whats wrong with the liberals???? You’ve been acting like spoiled little brats for fifty years shouting people down who have legitimate differing opinions and the first time the people who remained silent while you were bitching about everything YOU said was wrong with the country, finally get pissed enough to ASKED question about the country they LOVE, you get your panties in a wad.
Well if you don’t like your parents and grandparents going to meeting and questioning our paid WHORES with tough questions, then don’t continue pissing away the country they worked, fought and had family members die for.
Anyone who seriously wants a government agency having any say over their medical care, NEEDS SERIOUS HELP !!!!!!!!! At least with private companies you have a FEW choices, but when the government forces private companies out of business, WHERE DO GO GO IF YOU’RE NOT SATISFIED !!!!!!!!!
Think people, the government already has TOO MUCH control over our lives. If you want to be a SLAVE, I’m sure there are places in the world who will gladly accommodate you, don’t make the rest of US SLAVES of the state !!!!!!!!!!
J.C. You are right, the partisan finger pointing is useless. Both parties are equally bad. I believe our best hope is to elect new reps and sens at every election. Maybe if they were not consumed with reelection (REELECT NOONE) they could vote the good of the country instead of their next election. I think it may be the only way to wrest control of our government from the lobbyists and career politicians.
Obama will make the 80 percent who are happy with their health care suffer in order to give the 15 percent who are not happy (Obama voters)”better” health care. The question is, when you are in a 6 month line to get an important operation, where will you go? Canadians come here. Where will we (and Canadians) go when our system is ruined? Switzerland?
I am a left of center dem. If there is no public auction I do not vote for Obama in 2012. I’ll sit it out. Period. I don’t need a democrat to put up no public option. I could have voted for a republican for that. if it goes that route Mr.Obama is just another bum. One of many.
Obamabot
I do understand how you can be proud of anything Obama has accomplished so far. $343mil vs $84mil lead to a very unimpressive win of 52% of the popular vote especially since McCain barely even tried to run, I have seen much more effort put into a campaign before. Defending DOMA by citing pedophile and incest cases showed a complete lack of knowledge or respect for his gay and lesbian voter base. Secret closed door deals with Insurance and PHARMA in clear violation of campaign promises. The failure of the stimulus bill due to a lack of leadership and oversight. Firing Inspector Generals who identify fraud and waste of governement funds by his friends. Refusing to apologize to the Police of this country for insulting them without knowing the facts. 7 months at least 3 vacations, I’ll have to check but I think that beats GW Bush’s record. Calling protestors un-American for not agreeing with him, even GW Bush said the first amendment allowed it. Calling on his supporters to push against the protestors, even GW Bush did not stoop that low. Asking people to send him names of people who are against his policies, glad that email system was “shut down” since it was reminiscent of many dictatorship plans in the world and just screamed 1984 to those who have read it. Claiming the medical companies are the bad guys but getting them to spend $150mil+ on advertising for his agenda through his secret deals with them. Claiming again and again that the corporate interests are against him and the bad guys even though they financially support him and he makes secret deals with them. Appointing tax cheats and lobbyists to cabinet posts. Making every issue about race instead of ability, everyone thank MSNBC for continuing to increase racial tensions during the election, supreme court nomination process, and the town halls. Increaing taxes on the poor and middle class by $1 per pack of ciggarettes (majority of smokers are poor to middle class), mandatory health insurance for those who cannot afford it coupled with a recomendation of windfall taxes on retirement benefits (Pelosi) and taxes on health care benefits (Obama, Pelosi, etc, etc), and a record setting deficit that will require higher taxes on all for many years to make up for. Ending wars and bringing troops home is not even a consideration at this point since he is actually deploying more troops to combat zones and the only move in Iraq was determined by a security withdraw deal signed by the previous administration. There is no strategy, there is a string of broken promises. I personally will be patient and watch another administration fall well below my lowest expectations of them and expect a Republican return to power since even with fillibuster proof majorities in both houses and the white house under Democrat control they lack the ability to create, pass, or manage a decent bill. Every Obama voter I know is regretting their vote now and trying to figure out if the Republicans will field a canidate who will at least try to campaign in 2012.
Has Obama kept one serious campaign pledge to date? I do not count the stimulus bill, especially since it was full of pork that Obama campaigned against, as keeping a pledge due to lack of management and the broken pork expenditure promise included in it.
Jt, you’re delusional.
15% Obama voters? 80% of Americans happy with the current healthcare system?
What news have you been following exactly?
Canadians don’t come to America for healthcare that often.
In fact, more Americans go to Canada for healthcare than Canadians go to America.
But yeah, go to Switzerland or any of the other modern Western countries that ALL have gov controlled healthcare.
Funnily enough, on average, the citizens from those countries pay 30% less for their healthcare than the average American does with under the current system.
Firstly, the Canadian scenario is a myth. Secondly, the “80%” who are happy have not needed their health care. Or been denied when they needed it. If they had they would not be part of your 80%. If they had a serious condition and relied on it they would be MOST unhappy. And the 15% you mention do not even have health care. How can they be unhappy with care they do not have hmmmm? The politicians have socialized health care. They don’t have to stand on line. Are they better than the rest of us? Why aren’t they complaining about their commie health care? Are they socialists? They must be. They’re supporting socialized health care. For themselves. Must be good.
So,how are all you Kool-Aid Cowboys loving the change we can believe in? Are we moving on yet? Has redistributing the wealth been good for everybody so far? Ha.
JT, Is an infant. read the post. nonsense. this is why republicans and democrats and independents can’t have an honest disscussion. because of stupidity. ignorance, and lies.
How are you loving the hate mongering, Swampcat?
Is it getting you anywhere yet? Has coming up with mindless insults and lies instead of actual plans been good to your party so far? Ha.
Lets be honest 70% plus of us do NOT want a public option. Who could possibly want our brilliant congressmen running our health care?!. They are a bunch of morons.
All who claim the U.S. has the best healthcare, ignore the results of ALL research published on the subject. Also must ignore the 1500 people seeing doctors daily at the free traveling clinic set up in L,A, last week, where hundreds waited in line continually (some overnight) just to receive basic care. The W.H.O. rates the U.S. 37th in health outcomes worldwide. All contries with some form of national health care rate higher than the U.S., although we in the U.S. pay a much higher % of gross domestic product (17-19%). In some cases we pay twice as much as other industrialized countries. This uncontrolled profiteering by the insurance companies and big pharma has increased steadily for decades, and will continue to take a bigger and bigger bite on earnings from the populas unless countered in some manner. The repubs claim the free market will fix all such unjust exploitation, but it is NOT a free market if the consumer cannot refuse to buy. And with life necessary products and services such as food, water, energy and medical care, refuseing to buy is fatal. Capitalisum is not capeable of operating in these fields unrestrained except to enslave the people. Socialisum is much better at providing the essentials, especially healthcare, as proven worldwide except here. Are we really so much worse at governmant than the rest of the world?
Let’s be honest, you’re pretty much wrong.
Most Americans DO want the public option.
The reason his ratings are dropping is because that option might NOT be happening.
Here’s a reality check for jt, wno wrote, “Obama will make the 80 percent who are happy with their health care suffer in order to give the 15 percent who are not happy (Obama voters)’better’ health care.”
In case he didn’t notice, President Obama won last November’s election by a landslide — 52% to 46% — compared to the pitifully slim majorities racked up by George Bush (maybe) in 2000 and 2004. Yet Bush ran roughshod over the Democrats, the people and the Constitution for the eight years of his rule.
I will agree, though, with those posting here from both the right and the left, who criticize the President and the Democratic majority in the Congress for waffling when they could very well push through their agenda alone. Frankly, I thought Jesse Jackson’s nutty off-the-mic comments during the election campaign were right on point. I love the President, but he’d have to grow a pair before the good reverend could give it a try.
And don’t get me wrong — I really do love the President, and I don’t think robust criticism of his policies when he goes astray is a sign of disrespect or disloyalty. The forces who supported him were a social movement, not a cult, and they need to hold his feet to the fire and demand that he serve the people.
You libs are hilarious. Trying to twist and turn and spin the obvious fact that a majority of Americans are not “Progressive” and don’t want government to run our healthcare system, plain and simple. Your poster boy is a socialist and we conservatives don’t like his politics.
Sorry, Ken — unfortunately, you conservatives didn’t win the election (and consequently do not constitute the “majority of Americans. Don’t cite any cherry-picked polls — the only poll that counts for the next three years happened last November.
Doggone it, I’m getting sloppy.
Sorry, Ken — unfortunately, you conservatives didn’t win the election (and consequently do not constitute the “majority of Americans.”) Don’t cite any cherry-picked polls — the only poll that counts for the next three years happened last November.
A lot of “Blue Dogs” are dead dogs. The real question is how their congressional careers die. If they go against Obama, they get primaried, and their primary opponent will have unlimited Obama financing. If they support Obama, they will be well financed, but are likely to lose to a Republican opponent. Additionally, if they support Obama and lose, they could get lavish rewards afterward like judgeships and administration positions, but such rewards are not guaranteed even if Obama promises them. Politics isn’t easy, and these Congress-critters are elected to make hard decisions and accept the electoral consequences. My prediction – in the end they will back Obama’s socialization of medicine. Obama and Pelosi have more levers of power than the opposition does.
“mannapat | August 21st, 2009 at 04:48 pm
Right, Al. Good question. One thing’s for sure. A few Blue Dogs have got to go. I may not ever donate to Obama again, but I certainly know the names of the dogs in congress who need to be voted out in Primaries. And I look forward to helping. Check out Act Blue.”
I’m wondering if you even know what Socialism really is, Ken.
Judging by your post, I’m going to go ahead and assume that you don’t, considering that a gov controlled healthcare system is not. Unless the rest of the entire western world (which already has similar systems in place and pay much less for it) is one big socialist melting pot.
You also seem to be oblivious to the fact that most Americans DO want that healthcare system, baked by polls and, oh, I dunno, the fact that Obama won the election with that being one of his main campaign points.
Enjoy your GOP-fed nonsense though.
It’s public option & bipartisanship that are bringing him down. Lead dammit, if the people want public option put it on the table and if the Republicans don’t wanna play leave’em on the bench.
Give me 1 billion dollars and I can fix the health care system! Here is how we do it:
1) Allow interstate competition between health insurance companies. Total cost $0.00. Still got a billion to work with and no long term debt.
2) Force Congress to use any healthcare system they pass. Total cost -$25,000,000 over the next several years with saving over their current golden healthcare plan. Now I have $1,025,000,000 left.
and no long term debt.
3) Spend $50million on beefing up fraud enforcement for Medicaid and Medicare and increase fines and punishments to a level that is considered draconian. Namely, 5 years in Leavenworth Prison and 150% fine versus the amount defrauded. Offer one month of amnesty before starting the campaign to eliminate fraud, and I would bet that the $50 million in cost will come rolling back in the first 30 days. In addition, modify the RICO laws so that where there is a systematic pattern of fraud, we can go after all of their assets. Total cost $0.00. Still have over a Billion dollars, with the potential to recapture hundreds of millions in annual fraud loss. Call this a benefit moving forward, but I still have $1,025,000,000 left.
4) Modify the law so that those of us who workout and eat right and stay fit and who can demonstrate their health to a physician, can and do get demonstrably lower health insurance costs, waivers against pre-existing conditions and in general are treated differently then those who cannot demonstrate health and fitness. Those who are fat and lazy have to pay more OR, they have to enter into a mandated and supervised fitness program where their demonstrated gains in fitness will reduce their overall healthcare costs. Heck, make it a realty show called, “I Used To Be A fat American” or call it a fitness tax. Now this one will cost some money, so let’s throw $100 million at helping fat lazy Americans get lean and fit. Still got $925,000,000 left however, and no long term debt either.
5) Remove all earmarks from any HealthCare Bill, or have each author standup on C-SPAN and explain why their earmark is good for the country, and good for healthcare, and how it benefits the country from a fiscal standpoint. Corruption only survives in the dark. Put in the light and most Americans will say “You want to spend my money on WHAT!?!” Total Cost $25,000,000 in TV air time. Still have $900,000,000 left over. BTW, I believe Mr. Obama made this promise during his “masterful campaign”.
6) Force Health Insurers to open up on their actuarial equations and to actualize the costs of pre-exiting conditions. Obviously if I suffer from coronary disease, I have a greater likelihood of incurring higher health care costs. However, if I am on a demonstrated regiment of diet, exercise and appropriate drug therapies supervised by a physician, then over time and with increasing health, my rates would drop. I believe we have to throw money at this as well. For those who cannot afford the initially higher cost, we underwrite the difference because America is actually an incredibly compassionate country. Total Cost $360,000,000. Still have $540,000,000 left and no long term debt.
7) Create Torte Reform and change the medical malpractice system. If a doctor is negligent then he/she deserves to be sued. But, life is a risky enterprise and guess what, sometimes people die. The simplest form of reform would be what they do in Britain, which is called the Frivolous Law Suit Rule. Those who bring asinine cases can be fined heavily for doing so. Total cost of law suit reform will be high, because the lobby for trial lawyers is the largest in Washington and has donated millions upon millions to democratic and republicans alike. Total cost, $500,000,000 to re-bribe our elected officials. Still have $40,000,000 left over.
9) Increase the ethical standards for our elected officials. So if you are sitting on the Banking or Healthcare reform committees, then you can not receive any direct or indirect benefit from the groups you are making rules for. End the “Friends of Angelo” programs. If your spouse is a HealthCare lobbyist, guess who should not be on the committee. Total cost $0.00, still have $40,0000,000 and no long term debt.
10) Take the remaining $40,000,000 and create an emergency fund by putting it into a CD paying 2.5% annually and use that money to help those who are in critical need of care. Make the application process simple, and make it a low cost grant or loan based on the person’s ability to repay. Perhaps, even make repayment in kind, meaning those who benefit from the program can donate their time to others in need. We are down to $0.00 but we have no long term debt.
Now there are 10 points that can be discussed, rather then simply calling each other names. Feel free to pick apart my ideas, but know that if you start calling me names it is because your ideas are not sustainable in the light of public discourse and debate. Name calling on either side is evidence of an argument’s intrinsic weakness. Focus on ideas that relate to change rather then partisan name calling.
What planet are you living on? Centrist and Bipartisan leader? Obama is a hard core leftist. He had to pretend to be somewhat of a centrist to get the votes of moderates and independents. Now Obama and Pelosi are trying to govern as the leftists that they are, but there is an inconvenient fact that many newly elected Democrats represent districts that are somewhat conservative. This is in total contrast to the Republicans, since they demonstrated that they can govern as a unified party in 2002-2006. Obama has a geography problem.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/horseraceblog/2009/08/amateur_hour_at_the_white_hous_1.html
He has to find a way to force his so-called “Blue Dogs” to the left. In the end, I predict that he will do so.
“Thomas | August 22nd, 2009 at 10:11 am
I think Obama’s biggest problem is that he wants to be centrist and a bipartisan leader, while Republicans and Conservative and their idiotic town hall shouters, can simply not be reasoned with. It’s like trying to make smart decision and making a few really stupid ones, just to appease the stupid people. He is wasting is time and effort and thus alienating his base and I hope he realizes that soon.”
Lester dear,
This is one Black American who is not supporting him any longer. Now you African Americans who have no true interest in this country might be supporting him but he has lost the support of many Black Americans. He is pandering to big business, where is the help for the people.You wait and see this bill for health care will benefit only big business. The administration keeps saying Insurance and Pharma groups are against this bill but that is not true,They met with the president before the bill came out and they are all on board as vendors, so who will make the money?? Homes are still being foreclosed and people are still losing their jobs.. Why not fix that before starting another project.
could it be we have elected a bunch of people who have attention deficit disorder?
with hundreds of thousands of people losing their jobs, why is our gov’t allowing over 400,000 visas a month to be issued for people to come here and work?? they have allowed 1.5 million foreigners to come to this country for employment in the last 12 months.Most will take jobs as taxi drivers and labors..This is bull S***.
I will never vote democrat again.
and what is up with him traveling all over the world? He just got back from a vacation and now he is off to another???We need a president who will stay in office, not take a jet across the country to see the Grand Canyon.. Reminds me of the “let them eat cake”
Andrew p, please do some reading or something.
Obama is in no way, shape or form a hardcore leftist.
I wish he was, since it would be an improvement, but he isn’t.
Thomas, exactly. He’s trying a little too hard to keep both sides with him.
Usually a good thing but not in cases like this when the two groups are so opposed to each others ideas and you get the idiotic town hall shouters tossed in.
Pim , you’re talking out of your ******.
Have you ever tried to get a working permit to get in to the states?
It’s simply not possible to get one for anything but specialised work that America itself doesn’t have enough people for already.
America has one of the toughest immigration processes in the world today.
And that travelling all over the world would be foreign relationships. A fairly important part of being a president.
All the other holidays are exactly the same as all the holidays previous presidents got to go on.
Presidents don’t get to decide when they go on holiday. There are strict rules and dates set for those.
Great post Andrew.
Code Obama is a hard core leftist just look at his background you don’t simmer in that junk for your entire life and then suddenly become a centrist moderate like the MSM claims he is.
Also it seems that Obama is spending a lot of time away from his responsibilites in this “crisis” he doesn’t want to go to waste. When politicians begin to cut back and save like it was a crisis then I will believe it is a crisis. Also please imagine Bush doing the same the outrage from people like you would be deafening but when Teh Won does it it’s business as usual.
Jack, to you too, please do some reading or something.
At best, Obama is a left leaning centrist.
Every single policy he’s brought up so far has been from a left of center position.
I hardly see Obama as the one.
Bush was a ******. Obama is only slightly better and nothing more than the lesser evil in the previous election.
If anything, I’d like to see him be an actual leftist for once, but I’m sure in your mind that translates in to the typical GOP communismmmmmm psycho-babble since that’s pretty much all your side can come up with lately.
Funny how you guys are still dropping in the polls as well.
What polls are you reading? Zogby, Gallup and Rasmussen have the Dem vs. Rep ratio shifting pretty quickly in favor of Reps.
See you at the polls in 2010!
Actual accurate ones instead of the faux news ones you seem to be frequenting.
Sure thing! And be sure to run Palin in 2012. We love an easy victory.
You bring up polls and then do not know who Zogby, Gallup and Rasmussen are? I am not the ignorant one, friend.
Be careful what you wish for Palin would toast Teh Won in a head to head debate the man has to read everything he says.
Fish are biting have a nice day everyone.
The tyrannical nature of Obama and his administration is becoming more clear to Americans of all stripes. His Marxist ideology is in direct conflict with the Constitution. His foreign policy is to bow down to our enemies by revising history to conform to their narrative, and will lead to devastation of American life and morale. Obama’s greatest short-term attack on America is his gargantuan deficit which he created to lead to crisis, which he will use via a vis the Cloward-Piven strategy to undo the Constitution. But the huge deficit will also directly weaken our national security, working synergistically with his foreign policy appeasement. He is becoming known as the man who stabbed America in the heart.
now who was it that voted in Obama again? his people, right? lmao
When he passes health care reform, his numbers will shoot up. But we all need to stick by him through this. After all, he’s all we have right now. So stop being fair-weather supporters and support the man you elected and will need to re-elect in 2012. We cannot afford another GOP president. We just can’t.
The American people are waking up and realize Obama is trying to push this health care package too fast.
What is there to the package that we don’t know about, who will make the big profits. If the entire world know that H/C in UK and Canada does not work, why does he want it so badly and so quickly for America?
I really hope Obama can fix these problems we have. Health care, wars, energy, to name a few are killing this country.
My greatest fear is that it will take more than Obama to do this. America needs to have a few conversations with itself. Topics we havent talked about in years.
So… I’ll start…
What does an American deserve by being alive?
Answer this and most of the problems will go away…..
Bush trashed the constitution and ran up the deficit, yet some of these same critics of Obama were no where to be found. I wonder why ?
Now, if Obama kept the wars in Afghanistan and Irag off the books like Bush did, the deficit would not look so bad. People do not want honesty, they want to be lied to.Bush did the initial bailouts and ran up the deficit more. He was left with a surplus, burned through that and provided record deficits.
Unfortunately, Obama is continuing many Bush policies as far as regulation, the economy, and bowing to corporate interest against the American people. He is not much better on the Constitution.
He is not a man trying for great things but is following the Rahm Emmanuel playbook of petty money politics. Rahm has incredible influence. He is not leftist at all !
If Obama is such a leftist, where is the regulation of Wall St. He defends Wall St. and their CEO’s everytime. History and law suggest that the banks should be broken up and string be given for the money and new boards appointed, but he refuses to do that. He blames them for much of the mess but puts no responsibility on them.
Obama Admin meets in secret and cuts deals with industry. That’s not real bottom up populace action really ! The people have to sacrifice and wait but the causers of this mess get direct and immediate aid with little be asked of them.
The spendorama ala stimulus bill was not obama’s. It was written by a committee of Dems who threw in every piece of old stale projects they could find, most having little to do with truly stimulating an economy. Obama misfired first when he thought his 54% victory represented a mandate. Do you remember when the prez said that back in 04? It’s a bad mistake to assume that when the voting populus is so fickle.
Obama’s campaign guys have goofed big-time. Most people just want to pay less taxes and get on with life…not all this cap and tax stuff.
Obama has not called for H1 reform, or at least temporary reduction, during this economic crisis were jobs are still being lost. Where is his America first policies ?
Most other countries have slowed their immigration and tried to put their people first over short term immigration.
There are engineers and technicians unemployeed yet no change in policy for people losing their jobs.
Iggy wrote:
The spendorama ala stimulus bill was not obama’s. It was written by a committee of Dems who threw in every piece of old stale projects they could find, most having little to do with truly stimulating an economy…”
That is because Obama is playing Mr. Compromiser, little leadship, and wanted to check off a box saying he go it. That is partly because Rahm does not beleive in effective legislation but playing games and getting “wins”.
Obama wanted everyone to be happy. He gave up too much control so he could avoid conflict.
I wish people and Congress had taken just an extra 2 weeks and had hearings. That would have helped with the stimulus more than it would have hurt.
Bill Maher nailed it in one sentence: “The Democrats have moved to the Right and the Right has moved into a mental institution.”
First he abandons his commitment to end DADT and DOMA. Then he keeps Bush’s War on Terror strategy. Now he is flubbing health care reform.
Why should those who followed him believe in him now?
This is Change you can’t see.
When asked how private companies can compete against government, Obama had an eye opening reply below. Obama has said UPS and FedEx do fine, but it’s the US Post Office which has problems (don’t understand how this supports the public option). US Post Office is estimated to lose nearly $7 billion this fiscal year based on news stories. The federal deficit is now projected to be up another $2 trillion over next decade to shocking $9 trillion. We have major, major financial problems in this country, and this rate of spending is only going to worsen situation. President Bush 43 made a big mistake not lowering government spending when he cut taxes, and Obama is continuing to poor financial management of our country, the severe consequences of which future generations will undoubtedly bear.
If government can’t run a business as simple as shipping from point A to point B without large tax payer support, how are they going to get healthcare right without significant taxpayer support?
Someone please find me an example of social welfare state we seem to be morphing into that can be objectively described as having vibrant, sustained economic growth, which should be our common goal regardless of political affiliation.
—–
“[I]f the private insurance companies are providing a good bargain, and if the public option has to be self-sustaining — meaning taxpayers aren’t subsidizing it, but it has to run on charging premiums and providing good services and a good network of doctors, just like any other private insurer would do — then I think private insurers should be able to compete. They do it all the time. I mean, if you think about — if you think about it, UPS and FedEx are doing just fine, right? No, they are. It’s the Post Office that’s always having problems.”
Yes, in America, us Democrats are tired of not being heard. Obama needs to be stronger. And my local congressman Jim Cooper needs to stop blocking the bill. Cooper is a Democrat in a very Democratic district that voted +13% for Obama. Today, these dissatisfied Democrats gathered in Nashville to protest Cooper’s lack of support. Here’s a video of the anti-Cooper protest by fellow Democrats:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTW8×3GnudM&feature=channel
Today’s WSJ editorial has a good piece on how fiscal conservatism will lead to better economic results than free spending using Texas as an example. Worth a read.
Hi LBear, you may want to learn some history before you start blaming Wall Street and banks exclusively for our financial problems. While there is no doubt that lack of understanding of risk management and flawed compensation structures contributed greatly to problems faced last Fall in our financial system, they didn’t do so exclusively. Non-employee stockholders in banks should know they are suckers because employees were (and will continue to) take meaningful risks to enhance their own P&L statements, with stockholders bearing disproportionate share of the downside. Burn me once, shame on you. Burn me twice, shame on me . . . .
Barney Frank will deny this in sarcastically dodging the issue, but weren’t Democrats pushing home ownership for all persons and doing so fairly aggressively? All those stories about sub $100K a year income folks living in $500K homes didn’t strike anyone as unusual? C’mon. The blame for what occurred last Fall has many fathers, and yes, it does include Democrats.
Intellectual dishonesty is fatal in the investment business, but it doesn’t seem to be in politics given the commentary I see on TV and read in papers.
+70% want the Public Option? In what country? Or is it just 70% of the extreme far-left liberals? It’s certainly not 70% across the board.
I think it was put in there as a bargaining tool. Take out the p.o, to get everything else in the bill passed. Obama himself summed it up best- FedEx and UPS do a much better job than the USPS. Just another example of how inefficiently the government runs its programs. How many examples do you need? Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, now rumors of Sally Mae and Ginnie Mae being in trouble. Government control over health care would be a fiasco. We’d end up going to Canada and using their form of socialized medicine! It will surely stop the Brits and Canadians from coming here. The entire bill is available on line for you reading pleasure. I think by the time you come to the part where our national health ID cards will have our bank accounts embedded in them, you’ll start to see the ugly truths that have been written into House Bill 3200. And when your mom or grandma gets sick, get ready to say goodbye. Elder-care will be diminished to the point of euthanasia.
If you’re getting your education from the editorial page of WSJ, a page so irresponsible the news on the front page sometimes deliberately contradicts it, you are only getting indoctrinated into wingnut la-la land.
If you don’t realize that you have nothing of value to say here.
Or anywhere else, for that matter.
Hi OddJob, I’d encourage you to take a more intellectually honest and open approach before criticizing newspapers like WSJ. Just reading the NY Times won’t give you the whole picture, my friend, it’s important to hear both sides of it. I am not asking you to read Karl Rove’s editorials, but others are much more balanced than him.
David:
“Just reading the NY Times won’t give you the whole picture, my friend, it’s important to hear both sides of it.”
Not to him it apparently isn’t.
You should have left him here alone…talking to himself, so he could get used to where he’s going to end up politically very soon…and remain for a very long time.
4 years of Carter gaves 12 years of Reagan/ Bush.
2 years of unfettered Clinton gave us 12 years of GOP governance in the Congress and 8 years of “W”, (for better or worse).
2 years of Obama/Pelosi/Reid should be good for at least a generation of public political innoculation against the neo-Marxist aspects of the Democratic Party.
I think it’s safe to say that almost all liberals and progressives are united in not giving a **** WHAT the Republicans want. And why should we? After 8 ruinous years of their “leadership”, their ignoring of our opinions, and running roughshod over the American people, why on earth would anyone care what they think? They lost the election, Obama won – and Obama won because people like me wanted to see big changes in how this country is governed. Kowtowing to right-wing meatheads isn’t what I voted for.
Would you approve of president Cheney having access to your healthcare records?
Two days. Not. one. response.
Answer that question honestly, and you will not want government anywhere near your healthcare.
It may not seem like it, but the president and members of congress are but temporary occupants of their offices. Be very careful what you wish for.
Then, there is this gem:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/22/veterans.affairs.bonuses/
You can lie to yourself all you want to, but government does not do anything efficiently. Obama said so himself when comparing the Post Office to Fedex and UPS.
AMB:
“They lost the election, Obama won – and Obama won because people like me wanted to see big changes in how this country is governed”
Groovy for you!
So what’s your boy and the Hill gang waiting for? Make with the hopey-changey already,right?
Because you got it right in your sentence above:
“Obama won…”
YOU didn’t win, OBAMA won; can you understand the difference?
Believe it or not, Conservatives had to learn this lesson about the Bushes, and now you’re going to have to learn it about The One.
The proof is in the pudding, ace.
Your “wants” are being weighed against what the rest of the country desires,(including, but not limited to, right-wing meatheads), and you folks are ending up with the short end of the stick.
Just like in the War on Terror, just like with PATRIOT Act and Guantanamo, just like TARP and subsidies to big business.
Deal.
You were used.
Obama might at heart be one of you, but he’s trying to play it as “center” as he can conceive of, (which ain’t much).
This is why I was happy to throw my protest vote to Barr rather than McCain.
Instead of 4 years of McCain ******** HIS base over, we’re going to have 4 years of Obama betraying YOU…sweet!
But here you are, so programmed by your Groupthink that you reflexively assert that it’s for “pandering to the Republicans”,(by a supermajority Democratic Congress, no less),that is the reason your entire agenda isn’t already fait accompli.
And while refusing to face the facts before your face that people just don’t WANT your kind of “Change”.
Or maybe it’s racial, Obama is being lazy and shiftless and not moving fast enough for the self-perceived Liberal White masters who voted him in…could that be it?
“I think it’s safe to say that almost all liberals and progressives are united in not giving a **** WHAT the Republicans want. And why should we? After 8 ruinous years of their “leadership”,”
Yeah, that 6% unemployment was a *****, sure glad that is over with. Viva la revolution.
> their ignoring of our opinions, and running roughshod >over the American people,
I have no idea what this means. The Dems filibustered just about everything, and what did pass was written or co-sponsored by Dems: No child left behind, prescription drugs. You can’t mean the Patriot Act or Fisa, or Guantanimo, or The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan because they have all been approved or continued by your star pitcher.
>why on earth would anyone care what they think? They >lost the election, Obama won – and Obama won because >people like me wanted to see big changes in how this >country is governed. Kowtowing to right-wing meatheads >isn’t what I voted for.”
And government takeover of business, banking, and healthcare, is not what Obama promised, or I voted for.
Which of us is right? Unlike you, I am willing to listen to rational discussion of the opposite point of view.
Would you trust president Cheney to own your healthcare information?
I await your rational answer with baited breath…
It is a simple question. Answer it honestly and you will not support this “healthcare reform.”
Truth and Light (???) “You can lie to yourself all you want to, but government does not do anything efficiently. Obama said so himself when comparing the Post Office to Fedex and UPS.
I don’t know or care what Pres. Obama said about Fedex, UPS and the U.S. Post Office. All I know is, the USPS is general cheaper for me, and in terms of receiving mail and packages, I ALWAYS use the Post Office option over any of the private companies. If I’m not home when a package delivery is attempted and I’m not home (which is almost always, because I work for a living), I have to travel to the (not so nearby) offices of UPS or Federal Express to pick the package up myself, and and only Mondays through Fridays (they’re closed on Saturdays). I’ve had more long lines, delays and screwups, including lost packages, from the private companies as well. In fact, my experience with UPS has been positively nightmarish. (They once were unable to locate, for a couple of days, a $50,000 mortgage refinance check I had been mailed.) If I miss a package from the U.S. Postal Service, I can run down and pack it up from my local post office six days a week.
When, before this worldwide economic crisis, did you ever hear about major fiscal problems inh the USPS, and the deficit numbers you’re talking are not all that bad, considering the times. So let’s raise the rates a little. Forty some-odd cents still gets a letter delivered anywhere in the U.S., including Alaska and Hawaii. To me, the postal service is an excellent example of how the government can often do things more efficiently and better than private profiteers.
Herculano Fecteau:
“To me, the postal service is an excellent example of how the government can often do things more efficiently and better than private profiteers.”
This is what your self-described radicalism since your teenage years in the early 70’s has come to, huh?
Writing encomiums to the efficiency and thrift of the United States Postal Service.
What a pathetic and ridiculous spectacle old radicals make of themselves.
Thanks for the guffaws, comrade.
You REALLY “stuck it to the Man” with that ‘un!
I am a democrat and I am one of those that have lost faith in Obama. He doesn’t seem to know what he’s doing. When he said hope and change, he meant change more than anything. He keeps changing his views…yes, by now I have figured out that we have an inexperienced president that doesn’t know what he’s doing.
Perhaps if we Liberals supported Barack a little better his strength would get a better bill passed. The “Conservative” bunch think they are getting support for a greatly hacked bill. When in fact most of the drop in support is because it’s too weak. There should be large shows of support for Health Care Reform rather than dissent from both sides. Otherwise meaningful reform will die yet another ignominious death.
Remember,the country is broke. We have no more money left. Haven’t we learned that that we can’t charge it to our children.
paviel:
“Perhaps if we Liberals supported Barack a little better his strength would get a better bill passed.”
Oh no! Don’t blame yourself for not supporting Obama ENOUGH.
Believe me when I tell you that from where I sit it is astounding the degree to which you folks have supported The One.
If you really want to blame something, aside from the Usual Suspects, you might consider blaming the very idea of nationalized health care itself.
It didn’t fly in the early 1990’s, and it’s not flying now. How many times will you good folks keep throwing up that rotting duck carcass and expect it to magically soar like an eagle?
You guys are forgeting about the Healthcare negoiations with ‘Big Drugs’, ‘Big Insurance’, and ‘Big Hospitals’ being broadcast on C-SPAN. Did you ever beleive he would actaully dod this ?
Wow great thread and the first thread I have read on this site that had actual discussion instead of TPM. Hope you guy/gals stop by more this place sure does need something other than 24/7 TPM and me making fun of these liberal loons!!
yippie:
“Hope you guy/gals stop by more this place sure does need something other than 24/7 TPM and me making fun of these liberal loons!!”
You don’t mind a few more “shotgunners” around this “moonbat nest”?
I assume “TPM” means “The Party Mantra/Manifesto”?
@bilgeman
You have assumed correctly!! Oh yes this moonbat nest needs more “shotgunners” to give them their daily dose of reality!
I simply do not want to pay any of my hard earned dollars to provide health care for anyone else. I work hard enough to care for my family without being forced to work even harder to support someone elses.
If we truely want to bring down the cost of health care, than the solution is easy. It is called tort reform,
I totally agree larbo and those that want to provide healtcare for all are FREE to do so they don’t need the government to force them. If they seriously want to help others then they need to get their checkbook out and pay for policies of those they want to help. But that’s not the liberal way they must force it upon others and take their income to give to those they want to help. It’s the liberal way, they want to save the world with YOUR money. They need their money to keep the DNC in power.
???”+70% of Americans want the public option.??? (see prior post). Sure doesn’t jive with the polls I’ve been reading. The following is a quote from Rasmussen’s site as of 8/27/09:
“Seventy percent (70%) of likely voters now favor a government that offers fewer services and imposes lower taxes over one that provides more services with higher taxes, according to a new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey. That’s up five points over the past month and is the highest level measured in nearly three years.
Just 19% would prefer a government that provides more services in exchange for higher taxes, down five points from July and the lowest level in over two years. This marks the first time the percentage of voters who prefer this type of government has fallen below 20%.”