The Morning Plum
* CNN confirms Obama’s plan to escalate in Afghanistan with 34,000 new troops.
* But The Times puts the number between 25,000 and 30,000.
* The Times, perhaps ominously, adds this:
One administration official involved in Afghanistan policy said the president and his top advisers were thinking in terms of “exit strategies” and not necessarily “exit timetables.” He compared the current thinking to the “conditional engagement” that President George W. Bush used in Iraq.
* The Washington Post offers a slightly different account, saying Obama will offer a “general time frame” for an exit.
* Either way, Obama may be planning to tell the public that adding those troops is the best way to “finish the job” because it will hasten the training of the Afghan army.
* It’s war! David Broder strikes back at Harry Reid, though I’m not sure whether the stinging charge that Reid falls short of Mike Mansfield and Howard Baker will have all that much resonance with today’s audience.
* A doozy, courtesy of Dana Perino: “We did not have a terrorist attack on our country during President Bush’s term.” And this was during a discussion of 9/11!
* Lou Dobbs mulling a run for the Senate seat of Robert Menendez?
* Josh Marshall savors the possibilities: “Dobbs v. Menendez would have some iconic oomph in the Dobbs Universe, with the whole white guy taking a job back from a Hispanic angle.”
* Public Policy Polling: Obama drop below 50% driven entirely by slippage among Republicans.
* And Michele Bachmann experiences a flash of introspection and self-doubt: “I wish I could be more artful in the way that I say things.”
What else is going on?
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How many Nobel peace prize winners have decided to escalate a war 2 months later?
Not sure commonbond. Go do a Google search and get back to us will ya!
Anyways, I’m gonna take a stab and this recent dip and say there are many against trying to detainees in federal courts in NY for whatever reasons they give. There’s the scared of terrorist gang and the don’t give them the same rights as Americans gang. That probably accounted for something.
Every time he makes a decision to go along with something, a few more people will peel off because they don’t like the decision. Some may come back at another time. Others won’t. Americans seem pretty fickle.
From the rather ridiculous Politico piece on Broder/Reid..
“In Broder’s opinion, the Senate should be acting on major issues — such as health care or immigration reform — with the national interest in mind, rather than putting partisan politics or one’s own state ahead of what’s best for the country.”
He figures that THIS indictment ought to be most properly laid at the feet of Reid? For whatever set of reasons, Broder has become effectively stupid.
commonbond – kissenger got one while actually conducting a war, didn’t he ?
mike – understatement of the year. Americans are not only fickle but are also clueless on politics in general.
James Galbraith on Moyers (via Crooks and Liars)
“I mostly don’t blame President Obama; he and his team went as far as they felt they could. I blame the head-in-the-sand politicians in Congress, the over-optimistic forecasters, the half-educated press, and the power of the financial lobby. I blame the avatars of fiscal virtue, the public debt scare-mongerers, the astrologers for whom thirteen significant digits (a trillion) for the stimulus package was just too much. I blame the Senate, which hands the balance of power to small states at the expense of disaster areas like California, Florida and New York. I do blame the Bush-Obama financial policy team, who either believed that “credit would flow again” if you stuffed the banks with money, or knew that it wouldn’t.” http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/galbraith-double-digit-joblessness-go
Bernie — agreed — how anyone could have watched the last six months in the Senate and blame Reid for partisanship is simply incomprehensible.
From Palin’s first legislative director…
“Moore asked Bitney if Palin is sane. Bitney’s response: “Is a sociopath sane?”" http://www.adn.com/palin/story/1025305.html
(h/t andrew sullivan)
Dana Perino claims that 9/11 never actually happened.
http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/200911240056
“We did not have a terrorist attack on our country during president Bush’s term.”
And…shockingly, no one on FOX “news” corrected her.
I know there have been a lot of Bush officials who have talked about keeping the country safe on their watch but have I have not heard anyone say, “We did not have a terrorist attack on our country during President Bush’s term.” I hope the MSM doesn’t let this just go unanswered. Ms. Perino needs to be asked to confirm or clarify her remarks.
@mike
There’s no “seems” about it. Americans are fickle, flakey, and impatient. The instant gradification culture here has erroded so many minds, it’s scary. Notice how that mindset has worked out for our economy…
@Greg
“how anyone could have watched the last six months in the Senate and blame Reid for partisanship is simply incomprehensible.”
And yet you see many, MANY Republicans claiming just that…and no one calling them on it to their face. You mentioning it here is great and all, don’t get me wrong, but until one of these jacka**es gets busted down in an interview they are going to keep lying.
@Andy
“I hope the MSM doesn’t let this just go unanswered. Ms. Perino needs to be asked to confirm or clarify her remarks.”
I’m sure her ‘clarification’ will be coming soon. She’s never apologize for her remarks, even though she should. She’ll likely say that she merely meant there were no attacks during HER time in the Bush Administration, and that she misspoke. Followed by a non-apology-apology.
Sure, it could be seen as a slip of the tongue. But first off, it goes to the flippant way her (and other Republicans) see history…and second, it begs the question – why in the world didn’t anyone correct her?
On the modern operations of the Senate…
“In terms of culture and custom, the turning point was almost certainly the previous health-reform debate, in 1993 and 1994. That’s when Bob Dole, then the majority leader, made the phrase “You need 60 votes to do anything around here” his mantra, and when — thanks to Bill Kristol’s famous memo — the idea of blocking major legislation for political reasons, rather than trying to get it revised to reflect your own policy preferences, took hold. Maybe I put too much weight on that period because that happens to be when I worked in the Senate, but there’s no doubt that at that time, a whole bunch of obstructionist techniques came out of the dusty toolbox, such as “filling the amendment tree” and, in the House, the motion to recommit a bill to conference. (I once witnessed Ted Kennedy asking staffers for advice about how to break one of these tactics, which he had never seen in 34 years in the Senate.)” http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/tapped_archive?month=11&year=2009&base_name=over_at_talking_points_memo
(sorry, h/t on that last to Brad Delong)
@BBQ
I really hope this Perino thing gets more traction then blogs, websites and worst persons in the world. Perino was the official voice of the Bush White House. What she says now carries a lot of weight with many Americans, so even a clarification is important.
Issac Chotiner addresses Douthat’s column…
“…Douthat then contrasts them to Obama, who did not allow his celebrity status to get in the way of his wonkishness and seriousness.
The first problem with this argument is that, er, Palin is unlikely to become a policy wonk because she is not very smart. What’s more, Douthat’s argument is tautological. Sure, it would be nice for the GOP if Palin and Huckabee were interested in policy. But if they were interested in policy, then they would not be so appealing to the GOP base. In other words, the problem is that a large part of the right has no interest in a policy wonk, and sneers at intellectuals and elites and the types of people Douthat would like to see running the party. A candidate who was interested in learning the ins and outs of the welfare state and health care policy is unlikely to ever achieve Palin/Huckabee levels of popularity with the grassroots.” http://www.tnr.com/blog/the-plank/palin-and-huckabee-will-never-be-serious
That’s exactly right. As soon as Palin might begin to voice nuance or ambiguity (a consequence of honestly facing complexity and uncertainty) her appeal to her base would fizzle out. The simple, cliched and unthinking-formulaic is where her appeal rests. Where Huckabee (much smarter and more honest) has fallen away from the Palinesque, he’s lost support from that base (and, of course, from Limbaugh et al).
This present party and movement is so devoid of competent and original political thinkers that Gingrich is commonly held up as the intellectual golden boy. And I suppose one could consider that ranking to have merit if one held that the markers of high intellectual achievement were formulating everything into the self-help construction of “Ten Steps to Increasing Brain-Power”.
I’d be embarrassed to work at Politico. Their lead story is the administrations use of the word unprecedented.
Are they f’in serious? I don’t think I’ve ever met an organization so obsessed with trivial political non-issues that don’t mean a damn thing. I’m not even sure why I have them on my favorites tab.
Andy – There is already a dkos diary on wreck list on that flack perino’s lie. Hopefully KO and Rachel will cover it but I really doubt it’ll make any difference. IOKIYAR meme is strongly embedded in the american psyche.
Gosh, no one could possibly understand that 9/11 is assumed in a comment like Perino’s. Don’t be so willfully obtuse, lefties. You’ll have to find something better than that to trigger your faux outrage.
David Broder is a right wing hack.
To repeat myself: David Border is a right wing hack and always has been. He’s just become so obscenely disconnected from realty with his right wing hack attacks that it’s impossible to ignore anymore.
Unfortunately, much of the corporate-media pass right wing hacks like Broder off as either a “moderate” or worse as a “liberal”.
Broder’s job is to write the alternate reality where all of the Republican crimes are somehow the fault of the lefty’s that want those crimes prosecuted.
In David Broder’s alternate reality all or the Republican hyper-partisanship is the fault of the lefty’s who don’t just shut-up and do what the right wing wants.
And as a reward for his right wing hack work, David Broder gets invited to NBC’s Meet the Press and Gwen Ifill’s Washington Week and gets a regular column at… well, I should credit that outfit for given free reign to random commenters…
I did not see you linking to the great series by James Fallows on Obama’s trip to china and the total failure fo the american media to cover it correctly. The last one is also worth a read–
http://jamesfallows.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/11/last_words_on_obama_and_china.php
Talk about the media missing the story.
John Cole notes that Hoffman has concluded that he has no hope of winning and thus must withdraw his concession twiceitudinally. Note the wonderful little hat tip to Tina Fey…
“Guy sure is quick on the uptake.
Also, Acorn.”
http://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=30366
ifo- yes, totally missed. One could get depressed if it weren’t for medication, fresh bread, Ry Cooder and baby oil.
@BBQ…you said..” Americans are fickle, flakey, and impatient. The instant gradification culture here has erroded so many minds, it’s scary. Notice how that mindset has worked out for our economy…”
I am in absolute agreement! However…having said that..if Obama, a man I respect, admire, and support, doesn’t get the troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan prior to the 2012 election..which is actually only a little over 2 years away…he will have lost my support. Remember LBJ’s downfall came from within on a successful challenge from McCarthy and later Kennedy…both using the war as the issue that drove their success. We could have deja vu.
Does this mean I’d vote for a rethug…absolutely not…does it mean I’d be totally open to a primary challenge from the left by somebody like Alan Grayson who would fight the corporatists…to borrow that popular Alaskan phrase..”you betcha”
Bernie made an excellent point last night about the difficulty of turning around the ship of state and time required to tame the corporatists and war mongers amongst us…I agree, but two years is plenty for me on what I consider to be a horrid..horrible mistake..actually pair of mistakes. We don’t really need to be occupying either Iraq or Afghanistan! And the fallout for me includes Hillary..a woman I’d gladly vote for… unless the rumors are true that she is the hawk driving this stupid policy!
I’ll have some patience…give Obama the benefit of the doubt…but patience does have a limit!
“but have I have not heard anyone say, “We did not have a terrorist attack on our country during President Bush’s term.” ”
Darlin, hate to tell you this, but they’ve said about a million times now.
And they keep insisting it’s true.
Ry Cooder – Bernie the first time I went to Taos was in 1975 and Ry was living across the acequia in Ranchos de Taos from the people I was visiting.
Hear his song: That’s the way the girls are from Texas?
Love that song.
“unless the rumors are true that she is the hawk driving this stupid policy!”
Before this meme gets too much traffic…I don’t think we have credible means of establishing whether it is true or false. “Rumors” are, more often than not, either planted notions from good guys or bad guys with the hope you and I will make certain conclusions. Or they are guesses. This seems to me particularly true when dealing with the military and with foreign affairs matters. I certainly don’t know what real evidence we have to make this conclusion.
“Talk about the media missing the story.”
No kidding.
It was right about the time of the Nobel Prize that the media decided to get on board with the incessant Obama bashing that was already going on on the left and the right.
Tena – yes, I know the song (I married a Texan). When I think of “the greatness of America”, it isn’t power or soldiers I think about. It’s Twain and Louis Armstrong and Sondheim and Hunter Thompson and Cooder and Bobby McFerrin and the really incredible people who walk into my store every day. It sure as phuckk ain’t Dick Cheney.
“I think about. It’s Twain and Louis Armstrong and Sondheim and Hunter Thompson and Cooder and Bobby McFerrin and the really incredible people who walk into my store every day. It sure as phuckk ain’t Dick Cheney.”
well yeah.
And Eudora Welty and William Faulkner and Frank Waters and Leonard Bernstein and Lil Wayne and the Game and Muddy Waters and Jimi Hendrix and Dr. Dre and Nas and Agnes Martin and Mabel Dodge Luhan…et al…
Hillary has openly indicated that she supported the Troop surge that McChrystal called for. She said so, several weeks ago.
It is also her State Dept. that has decided to not sign the land-mines ban treaty.
Top that off with her vote to invade Iraq, and her campaign talk about being able to “obliterate” Iran, and what have you got.
If it talks like a Hawk, and Squawks like a Hawk, chances are it ain’t no Dove!
In those strategy sessions, Hillary won, and Biden lost. I wonder how he feels about that?
As for Broder: Harry Reid said that Broder was out of touch, and what does Broder do.
Why; he uses a very dated Mike Mansfield reference, that proved Harry Reid was completely right about Broder being out of touch.
I’m not sure whether the stinging charge that Reid falls short of Mike Mansfield and Howard Baker will have all that much resonance with today’s audience.
I’m shocked! You mean, Broder might be a retired guy who writes a column once in a while?
Bernie – and the Brokeshoulder Brothers – I should never have left them out.
They are katsina carvers from 3d Mesa in Arizona – Hopis. And the living embodiment of why they used to call the Hopi the Laughing Indians.
Hell, they ARE America.
how anyone could have watched the last six months in the Senate and blame Reid for partisanship is simply incomprehensible.
In blog lingo Broder is a concern troll.
Between David Broder’s right wing hackdom and the Republican paid right wing trolls at Politico.com, how is it that so many in our country can’t distinguish the persistent right wing bias of so many corporate-media outlets?
Is it just the right wing’s Big Lie about some nonexistent “liberal media” that has confused so many people?
Just an FYI for right winger’s: Fact checking and truth telling is not “liberal media”, it’s what journalism is supposed to do.
Re: Dana Perino
Aside from the 9/11 attacks, does Tracy Flick Perino consider those Anthrax mailings to top Democrats to not be terrorist attacks?
Greg,
Would you ask Tracy Flick about those attacks, please?
“Is it just the right wing’s Big Lie about some nonexistent “liberal media” that has confused so many people?”
Apparently. It has been said so often for so long that it’s one of those things that people believe – like cigarette smokers have a dulled sense of smell. In fact, the science says the opposite.
Cigarette smokers have a sharper sense of smell than non-smokers. Because smoking interferes with the enzyme that dissolves the molecules that carry the scent and they last longer on the scent receptors of smokers.
See how frakked up CW is?
How old is David Broder?
Have you seen his current passport picture.
Here it is:
http://icons-pe.wunderground.com/data/wximagenew/a/avtanski/25.jpg
Tena – thanks for the Hopi tip, don’t know them
Nate Silver gets an email from John Lofton http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/11/constitutional-chicanery.html
That heads into a very good piece by Nate. But the main reson I note it is that I had some seriously fun interactions with this insane person back in January. If you’d like to take a short holiday from the serious, I’ll link it in the next post…
http://bernielatham.com/2009/01/11/the-rise-and-fall-of-the-trouble-maker/
[Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu is to ask his security cabinet to approve a 10-month lull in settlement building in the West Bank, but not East Jerusalem.
Mr Netanyahu's office said he would seek a "temporary suspension of construction permits for housing".
The Palestinians said the exclusion of Jerusalem in the suspension was a "very, very serious problem".
They have refused to enter peace talks unless Israel halts all building in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.
Before the cabinet meeting, Mr Netanyahu said the move was "not a simple step, nor easy, but it holds more advantages than disadvantages".
...
The row over settlements has dogged US President Barack Obama's attempts to restart peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians for months.
Settlement building in the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem, is illegal under international law, although Israel disputes this.
...
The BBC's Katya Adler in Jerusalem says many will see Wednesday's announcement as a cynical move to appease the US.]
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/middle_east/8378871.stm
Bernie – No I don’t expect that you do know the Brokeshoulders. I know them by chance. I posted that comment because they are what I think about when I think about America; and I think about Wings at Taos Pueblo, who said to me last summer when all the Town Hall Tea Baggers were out and about, with their complaints over people getting stuff who weren’t born here – “who do those people think they are? They are ALL immigrants.”
@Bernie & Tena…you’ve left out John Steinbeck..IMHO the greatest American writer…his prose is incredible and his stories..always viewing the common man and underdogs in our society are just spectacular. I go on so much because I’ve just purchased the Steinbeck Centennial series…and rereading Of Mice and Men…East of Eden…The Pearl..and of course The Grapes of Wrath simply inspire me. America has produced some wonderfully sensitive people with loads of talent.
To all have a great Thanksgiving…I’m headed home to Cincinnati to visit family. It’s a bit of a challenge..we all have to dance very carefully about conversation topics…My mother is a Glen Beck devotee..wonder how she feels about him calling Sen Landrieu a prostitute and then the next night a hooker? My Cardiologist brother in law is at least for a single payer health care system…but my sister is straight from the republican mold of I’ve got mine screw you…
Still they all have their health..as do I..as I hope all of you enjoy as well. Have a great Thanksgiving and thanks Greg for a great blog!!!
Happy Thanksgiving, rukidding.
Sounds like you’re headed to the classic American Thanksgiving.
Travel safe.
“The instant gratification culture here has eroded so many minds [ed.]
I’m sure this isn’t original but I call it the “Entertainment Culture”, where pleasure seeking and instant gratification has drowned out being informed and often eclipsed any sense of Citizenship.
(Or in short, the: “look! a bunny!” ADD culture.)
Tena- “all immigrants”. Yes. And everyone on the planet is no more than a twentieth cousin of anyone else on the planet.
But you wouldn’t know it from what Yglesias’ poll shows… http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2009/11/stuff-white-people-like-disapproving-of-barack-obama.php
And his point re punditry demographics is important.
Well, rukidding – I also left out the greatest poet America has ever produced – Wallace Stevens.
Hands down no contest. And he spent his life as an insurance company executive.
“(Or in short, the: “look! a bunny!” ADD culture.”
Ok, where do you think this comes from? Two words: Television and video – e.g. video games. And the internet.
The internet has made “instant gratification” into a religion.
Cormac McCarthy should be in the picture.
From a dissenting opinion by Justice Scalia, and joined by his sock puppet, Justice Thomas.
This should scare the daylights out of most people.
People like Scalia, are turning The Founding Fathers into Deities who handed down infallible sacred doctrine.
Here is what Scalia wrote;
“This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is “actually” innocent. Quite to the contrary, we have repeatedly left that question unresolved, while expressing considerable doubt that any claim based on alleged “actual innocence” is constitutionally cognizable.”
Intelligence coupled with commonsense should relay to one that a women’s right to choose will continue as is and is just a wedge issue by the Enemies of Healthcare Reform to fracture, because a house divided, cannot stand!
Advanced Souls will not get involved in personality or petty conflicts of debate and are only concerned about the work — the Plan for Humanity and its betterment. There is so much to be done. Time is running short. And, only the good of the Whole matters, and not the individual parts.
“The New Age will not be ushered in and find true expression of its latent energies through the medium of old and patched up forms, or through the preservation of ancient techniques and attitudes. It will come into being through entirely new forms and by means of the intelligent discarding of old modes of religion, government and economic and social idealisms. It is always difficult for the (Servant of Humanity and Goodwill) who is working in the world of human affairs to strike the happy medium between sound physical plane techniques in expression and the measure of the vision which he sees; it is never easy to adapt and to relate the old to the new, thus producing that which the present requires. The task of the disciple, (servant of humanity) as you can see from the three words—old, new and present—is therefore primarily concerned with Time. This right comprehension of the time element requires the eye of vision, plus right interpretation of that which it sees (or envisions).” [Discipleship in the New Age II, Alice A. Bailey]
Thank God for the Agents of Change who try to make a difference in the lives of ordinary human beings, whose intentions and Duty are to uplift the conditions of the people and to serve the people…. They try to raise the minimum wage, they try to extend unemployment benefits, they try to make sure there is clean water and clean air, but its hard and there is always a fight from the best Congress money can buy, whose mission is to stall and to obstruct and to incite fear! And, at this time in our history, so much is Crying Out for Change. And, as Science teaches us to do nothing and to be static only leads to decay — only leads to death. Let these Agents of Change fight on with joy which will call in the “higher Angels of their being” and with solidarity, which is their strength. More importantly, “we (are Higher Selves, the engery of light and love) are the Change we have been waiting for”. We must get too it!
All check this out:
http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/climate-change/poll-only-a-bare-majority-of-republicans-believes-in-global-warming/
Instant gratification is also horrible for *** as well as civic duty.
@Tena…Thanks…hope you and Mr Tena also have a great Thanksgiving…
Scalia is on the record saying he thinks kids as young as 14 should be subject to the death penalty.
Scalia is proof there is no god; or if there is, the Catholic Church and its congregation have been looking in the wrong place all these years.
Tena, I don’t know if it is from that time but they have gone full insane. I make a bet though, since the Village is so vain and vapid the little party yesterday might buy Obama one day of normal coverage. I think though that we, as a country, are in very very dire straits if the media continues to miss the story on everything and instead cover deep issues as if they could be defined up or down in a 24 hr. cycle.
Great news. I found my long lost cousin, Bernie, and miracle of miracles, it all happened at the same time that Bernie found his long lost cousin, Quarterback!
Angellight – “Intelligence coupled with commonsense should relay to one that a women’s right to choose will continue as is and is just a wedge issue by the Enemies of Healthcare Reform to fracture, because a house divided, cannot stand!”
word up.
ifo – “I think though that we, as a country, are in very very dire straits if the media continues to miss the story on everything and instead cover deep issues as if they could be defined up or down in a 24 hr. cycle.”
O we are. Think about it – the press is so important to a functioning democracy that it got the very first right in the Bill of Rights – where it is named specifically – the press gets freedom in this country; it is enshrined.
And look what they’ve done with it. They’ve betrayed us and their country. And the founders, who handed them the freest press on earth.
@rukidding
“if Obama, a man I respect, admire, and support, doesn’t get the troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan prior to the 2012 election..which is actually only a little over 2 years away…”
Pres. Obama made clear in the campaign that he was hawkish on Afghanistan. I agree with you in that I don’t want troops there either, but that’s not what Pres. Obama campaigned on. The idea that he would lose your support for not doing something he made no claim he would do during the campaign is a bit much.
I agree with Iraq. But it’s tricker than that. I wouldn’t be surprised if we still had some minor forces left in Iraq for “training” purposes. It would be disapointing if it were the case, but I could live with it. Also, do you count private security firms as “troops” when you say not to have any in Iraq? If the Gov. is paying them, it seems like the same thing to me, but other see it differently.
“I’ll have some patience…give Obama the benefit of the doubt…but patience does have a limit!”
Again, that’s the whole point. You’re listing your patience limit at the end of a 4 year term, when a lot of these problems – wall street, military industrial complex, congressional wh*ring, etc. – have been institutionalized into the DC system for DECADES.
I am not happy with everything Pres. Obama is doing. In fact, there are many things that I’m downright angry about. But every once and a while it’s useful to take a break from things, step back, and really look at the magnitude of the problems he’s facing and the built in road blocks he’s trying to take down.
He really is handling the biggest calamities that we’ve seen since Roosevelt…and Roosevelt had 12 years in office to work on them. Plus, one could easily argue that the issues Pres. Obama is facing today are not only equal in scope to Roosevelt, but also far surpass them in complexity.
Let’s keep pushing, and keep forcing him to move this country forward. At times it will be tiring, and frustrating, and dissapointing. But 30 years from now, we’ll see a better country, we’ll know that we had something to do with it, and Pres. Obama will go down as one of the best Presidents in this country’s history.
BBQ – I bow in your direction: (-.-)(_ _)(-.-)//**** (bravo!)
Awesome comment.
Bernie:
Your political system in the US has become seriously degraded and corrupted to the point where any imaginable Dem president will be stymied and blocked at every turn.
It is absurd to suggest, as you do, that any degradation and corruption of the “system” necessarily works against the agenda of a Dem president (presumably as opposed to a Republican president). In the first place, it is a conceptual error to think of a “system” as corrupt apart from the people who operate within the system. If you say that the system is corrupt, you can only mean that the people who are running the system are corrupt. And who is running the system right now? Whoops.
Corporate money going to lobbyists or “astro-turf” movements has no effect on politics unless the politicians in charge allow it to. Given that Dems have an overwhelming majority in both houses of congress and control the executive branch, it is beyond ridiculous to suggest that the corrupt “system” is working against the Dems. If the system is corrupt, it is the Dems themselves that are guilty of corruption.
Furthermore, opposition parties by definition, um, oppose. The fact that you interpret the R’s opposition to Obama’s plans as an example of the “degradation” or “corruption” of our political system says more about your own dictatorial political inclinations than it does about the R’s. And, again, it is the height of foolishness to suggest, as you do, that a president with a 79-seat majority in the House and a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate is somehow being stymied by the “lack of integrity” of the minority party.
As for that “media machine” operating as a “propaganda arm” of the opposition party, let’s, for the sake of argument, assume that your hyperbolic accusation about FOX News is indeed true, and examine the awesome power of this media machine. Despite being in political opposition to the 3 major media networks, the other two major cable news networks, most of the elite press, the culture shapers in Hollywood, and the molders of young minds in academia, this single media outlet has such vast political power that in the last round of elections it managed to vault it’s preferred candidates to, er, a 6-point loss in the presidential election, a loss of 8 seats (plus 1 defection) in Senate, and the lowest number of seats in the House in a generation. And this is the media power that you think is preventing Obama from enacting huis agenda? What an utterly asinine theory.
” In the first place, it is a conceptual error to think of a “system” as corrupt apart from the people who operate within the system. If you say that the system is corrupt, you can only mean that the people who are running the system are corrupt. And who is running the system right now? Whoops.”
That’s not true. A system is an aggregate and aggregates form their own rules apart from the individuals who make up that aggregate.
“System Effects and the Constitution
Foreword by adrian vermeule :: A system effect arises when the properties of an aggregate differ from the properties of its members, taken one by one.”
http://www.harvardlawreview.org/index.php
The Comments Parasite Returned.
Tena:
In what way is our “political system” corrupt in the absence of corruption of individual politicians?
Scott C – read the article. It explains.
Tena:
The article is about Constittional law theory, not the corruption of our political system. If you are unable to substantiate your claim, just say so. Otherwise, explain how our political system is corrupt in the absence the corruption of individual politicians.
It’s tedious hearing everyone lump Dems in one bag.
Even the Republicans have two (2) in their leadership that aren’t in complete thrall to corporations.
As for the Dems, in the House a good chunk are conservative Republicans (Blue Dogs), a larger chunk are moderate Republicans (DLC’ers), and a (growing) minority are “the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party”.
In the Senate, “Dems” only control 58 of the required 60 Senate seats and many of those 58 are part of “the Republican Wing of the Democratic Party”.
And in the Supreme Court the “left” is and has been a minority for years.
All of that doesn’t even begin to scratch the surface of the true power “base” of the Republican Party: “the haves and the have-mores” that Republican Bush bragged of.
The right wing’s true “base” of corporate elites is a powerful part of ‘the system’ that is always artfully ignored by right wing mouthpieces.
Liam said:
“Great news. I found my long lost cousin, Bernie, and miracle of miracles, it all happened at the same time that Bernie found his long lost cousin, Quarterback!”
[: (
In the spirit of the holiday, though, Happy Thanksgiving. Try to stay off the sauce.
Liam:
A person who survives by sucking on the teat of the taxpayer should be careful describing others as parasites. The irony is palpable.
Scott C:
Haven’t seen you here in a while. Welcome back.
@BBQ & Tena…I do take your points…however on the issue of WAR I simply feel the need to make as much noise as possible. I understand the complexities of the financial meltdown…the battle against the corportist rethug Faux News and idiots like Beck and Limbaugh…But for me WAR is different on so many levels…moral..economic..pragmatic…Obama or any Pres can pull the plug whenever they wish… I understand there needs to be a responsible withdrawal in terms of troop safety…but that’s about it.
All the terrorist attacks have been thwarted by police work…our troops have done nada..zippo..nothing to actually prevent terrorist criminals from entering our country. That is the job of the CIA/FBI/Homeland Security/Coast Guard.
I remember supporting the Vietnam War..actually volunteering to go…once you step foot in someone else’s country you realize..that is a HUGE step. We are not welcome…we shouldn’t be where we are not welcome short of an actual military…not criminal attack.
9/11 was a criminal conspiracy…because those involved invoked the name of Allah and called it a jihad doesn’t negate the reality that Al Qaeda is far more comparable to the Mafia..the only difference really is motivation…than they are to an actual military force.
Again harkening back to Vietnam if it wasn’t for people jamming the streets and making LOT and LOTS of noise who knows when that war would have ended?
How many troops are we still footing the bill for in S Korea….when the Koreans are among those eating our lunch economically…can you say Samsung..Hyndai…why are WE paying for THEIR defense…all this while we are making sure HCR is deficit neutral…it’s like falling down Alice’s hole…there is no common sense left…just fear and terror…by definition then the terrorists are winning.
rukidding – Look, just remember one thing about where I’m coming from – that’s all I ask: I believe that if Obama does get us bogged down worse in Afghanistan it will be fatal and it’s the last thing I want to see happen.
And I also know that Afghanistan is the place where many an empire has driven itself onto the reefs.
I think Obama is a good enough student of history to also know these things.
And I did read a great article that I cannot find to save my soul, that explained a lot of Obama’s thinking on Afghanistan, the proper role of the CIC, and where he’s headed. I’m still looking for it – it made me feel better about Afghanistan and Obama.
Thanks QB. Actually I stopped by to get the radical left’s take on the CRU scandal that has been brewing since last week. It seems that Greg has avoided mentioning it in his roundups, so no discussion about it from I can see. They are too obsessed with Palin to worry about the corruption of climate science, I guess.
Anyway, happy Thanksgiving to you.
The shrinking glaciers mean that the available water that melts during summer time will shrink, that affects both the water we use directly (drinking, bathing, cooking) and indirectly (water used in agriculture and industry).
The warmer climates in the Northwest mean a plague of beetles that are eating through large swaths of forests.
The change in weather patterns means large swaths of former agriculture lands are moving in unpredictable ways that are frequently disastrous to large populations.
What is happening to the growing African desertification is something that Midwest farmers should be paying acute attention to.
Coastal cities (which right wingers apparently willing to sacrifice to their ignorance and indifference) are going to be facing significant impacts from climate change.
And still, the anti-science right-wing sticks their head in the sand and denies the accumulation of objectively verifiable reality.
Scott,
Indeed, there is a strangely bipolar Palin Derangement Syndrome taking hold — about equal time spent in hysteria about the threat to the Republic she poses and to telling each other to stop talking about her because she is irrelevant.
I just referenced the CRU mess on a thread above. Perhaps the liberal will have something to say since they are outraged that polls show Republicans don’t believe AGW hype in the same numbers as Democrats (shocking).
Happy Thanksgiving
Right winger “quarterback” thinks Republican Sarah Palin, who believes that the dinosaurs and humans walked on earth at the same time, is an intellectual.
As such, “quarterback” is a perfect illustration of how completely ignorant and misinformed the average right winger is.
News:
Sarah Palin, who believes that the dinosaurs and humans walked on earth at the same time…
What is the evidence that she believes this?
LOL, Reefer, you are such a liar. I’ve never even said Sarah is an intellectual. I’ve just said she isn’t a “inbred moron” and college dropout like all you idiots claim she is.
Don’t you love it when Quarterbrain, the imbecile who lied about being a lawyer, starts calling other people liars.
“The article is about Constittional law theory, not the corruption of our political system.”
You didn’t read it. It’s about systems effects which are about systems and the constitution. It explains systems and the individuals who make up the aggregate that comprises the system. You can skip the stuff about the constitution if you like and just ponder the actual framework of systems – that’s what you are talking about.
Jeez dude – I have to explain yourself to yourself!
“Don’t you love it when Quarterbrain, the imbecile who lied about being a lawyer, starts calling other people liars.”
Ah, and after I both gave you credit for reserving judgment about Sparkman and wished you Happy Thanksgiving, you revert being to Liam the Liar.
Oh well. I don’t care what you think I am, but I’m guessing your mother taught you better than to tell lies.
Tena:
I have asked you for specifics. In what way is our political system corrupt in the absence of corrupt politicians? The article does not touch on this in any way at all from what I can tell. Apparently you don’t know either, which makes you original objection to what I wrote spurious.
Republican Sarah Palin falsely believes that dinosaurs and humans walked on earth at the same time.
Right winger Sam Zell’s LA Times: “Soon after Sarah Palin was elected mayor of the foothill town of Wasilla, Alaska, she startled a local music teacher by insisting in casual conversation that men and dinosaurs coexisted on an Earth created 6,000 years ago — about 65 million years after scientists say most dinosaurs became extinct — the teacher said.”
Republican Palin never refuted that she’d made the comment.
Republican Palin also had a witch-hunting preacher.
There’s irrefutable video of her with her witch-hunting preacher.
Republicans are anti-science.
And I’m guessing qb’s mother taught him better than to want to torture people, but it is just a guess…………
Right winger “Scott C.” starts with several false premises when he asks: “In what way is our political system corrupt in the absence of corrupt politicians?”
It’s part of a false right wing assertion that the “political system” is only “politicians” and is somehow falsely separable from “we the people”.
Right winger “Scott C.” explicitly rejects America’s Constitutional democratic republic which provides that “we the people” define and rule our “political system”.
Right wingers persistently try to pretend that “we the people” have no control over our “political system”, which is offensively false.
And keep in mind, that “we the people”, under the right wing’s Orwellian corporatism defines ‘corporations’ as ‘people’, which is somewhere between bizarre and insane.
Under right wing corporatism part of the corrupting influence of our “political system” is: Corporations (that right wingers insanely claim are “people”).
If I’m ever in a situation where it is only your life at stake, oddjob, versus the comfort of a terrorist, I’ll follow your wishes and be sure the terrorist isn’t subjected to anything unpleasant. No “attention grabs,” no harmless insects, no yelling, no cigar smoke, etc.
Right wing sadists like “quarterback” don’t care that they are setting the low bar for how American soldiers will be treated if captured.
Right winger’s excuse is, ‘well, the bad guy woulda done it anyways, therefore it’s ok.’
And by that faulty, slipper slope logic, right wingers justify the sadism of torture and thus create conditions where a captured American soldier will be subjected to the same sick treatment.
Cowardly right wingers like “quarterback” endanger American soldiers.
News:
It’s part of a false right wing assertion that the “political system” is only “politicians” and is somehow falsely separable from “we the people”.
I have asserted no such thing.
It was alleged that our political system is corrupted, and that such corruption prevents any Democratic president, much less Obama, from enacting his agenda. I simply pointed out that when speaking of a “corrupt” political system, one must necessarily be speaking of corrupt people within the system. That is, the system cannot be said to be corrupt in the absence of the corruption of the people running the system.
If you are now alleging, as seems to be the case, that it is “we the people” who are “corrupt”, you need to explain further what you are talking about.
Right winger “Scott C.” explicitly rejects America’s Constitutional democratic republic…
That is absurd. You are just making things up.
Right wingers persistently try to pretend that “we the people” have no control over our “political system”, which is offensively false.
Um…it was Bernie who was alleging this, not me. And Bernie, I assure you, is about as left as they come.
Right winger “Scott C.” fails to acknowledge or address the current right wing’s absurdly false claim that “corporations” are “people”.
As such, “corporations” (non-people) have tremendous influence in corrupting our political system.
Right winger “Scott C.” also fails to acknowledge that he initially couldn’t fathom how “our political system [is] corrupt in the absence of corrupt politicians?””
As right wingers often do, he fails to acknowledge that the citizenry who are not politicians have an impact in allowing or disallowing the continuation of a corrupt system.
And again, as right wingers often do, he further fails to acknowledge that NOT ALL CITIZENS SUPPORT CORRUPTION.
In fact, the left-wing believes that corruption should be rooted out and punished.
The right, however, repeatedly votes in corrupt Republican politicians (Vitter, Ensign, Sanford, Bush, Cheney, etc.) and listens to corrupt right wing media loudmouths (Fox, Limbaugh, “Savage”Weiner, etc.).
Further, the right-wing’s hate of American democracy means right wingers pretend that the citizenry doesn’t count but perversely think amoral corporations count as “super people” who are granted immortality and the right to own slaves (as in a corporate “person” is allowed to enslave other corporate “persons”).
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