Poll: Nearly Half Of Americans Believe “Death Panel” Falsehood
There’s a pretty striking finding buried in the new NBC/WSJ poll: It turns out nearly half of Americans believe the “death panel” fib.
The pollster read a series of predictions about the health care plan, and asked Americans whether they were “likely to happen” or “unlikely to happen.” In the “death panel” one, Americans were asked whether the health care proposal…
Will allow the government to make decisions about when to stop providing medical care to the elderly
Likely to happen: 45
Unlikely to happen: 50
Nearly half the country believes that the health care proposal would empower the government to withhold medical care for the elderly. As Steve Benen notes, this “points to a political discourse that’s badly broken.”
Indeed, another finding amplifies this point. Many have argued that those believing the “death panel” fantasy are a small minority that gets its info from Fox. But this poll finds that when it comes to television, only 23% get their news from Fox — far less than believe in death panels — while a total of 57% get their news from broadcast networks or CNN.
I don’t want to make too much of that — people could be getting their “death panel” info from the internets or talk radio other sources — and as a general rule, reporters hate it when you blame this kind of thing on the media. But if we agree that the media’s general role is informing the public, clearly something’s wrong here.
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The Soviet commisars would have been so proud of the success of the GOP/right’s disinformation campaign!
This goes right back to the charge that Obama has lost the message. Now exactly how does that happen? It happens because the media is not covering the message. They have been covering the egregious nonsense the right has been saying and that’s why people believe this.
Hell yes it’s the media’s fault – who else is there to blame for a message?
This proves what a poor job the Administration has being doing in informing the people about what their Health Insurance Reform package will contain. I still have no idea what their bottom line is on the bill, so of course they left a information void, which the opposition was easily able to fill with all sorts of distortions. If you are not pro-actively spreading the truth, in clear plain language, then of course you are leaving the public at the tender mercies of the professional distorters.
Who knows, to this day, what are the key components of a Health Insurance Reform bill, that the White House has stated clearly they must have, and will not walk away from. I do not, and I am not aware of the White House having every made such a clear declaration. That is why the Big Lie is gaining traction.
That question is too wide open. Isn’t it true now that certain medical treatments are withheld from elderly patients? How many 90-year-olds get organ transplants?
@Liam: Although I think we often disagree – I am behind you 100% with that interpretation. Heck, you can’t really call it a lie if you don’t know what the final bill will or will not contain.
“This proves what a poor job the Administration has being doing in informing the people about what their Health Insurance Reform package will contain.”
THERE IS NO BILL YET and this is hardly the administration’s fault.
Y’all are as bad at apportioning blame as the Repugs. How is it Obama’s fault that the media has not only been following the rioters around, but we caught MSNBC trying to find the most outrageous of them to highlight?
Come the hell on.
@Liam & @sbj
Isn’t the point of the media to keep government in check? As in, refute lies and propaganda that politicans (on either side) use to try and manipulate the public?
This isn’t a WH problem. They haven’t been perfect with messaging, but it’s the Free Press of this country who’s supposed to be informing citizens. That’s the whole reason we have a free press in the first place.
This poll is a referendum on how poorly the traditional media has done at it’s job. And also how effective a 24 hr propaganda station can be at tricking the general population.
A “Two Minutes’ Hate” is nothing more than a preview of FOX News’s primetime lineup.
Tena, I’m with you, but it doesn’t mean the message is not under control. The media’s irresponsible, the Republicans are fomenting riots and telling lies, the Democrats are at each other’s throats. It would be entertaining if it wasn’t so serious. Serious as a heart attack.
I’m giving too much credit, but I still fantasize about a judo rope-a-dope wherein Obama turns his opponents energy back on them.
Does the President have to have a public option, or not. One day he does, and then another day he hints that he may not, and Secretary Sibelius also states that the Public Option is not a big deal.
If they do not know, from day to day, what they have to have, then they hang me out to dry, with nothing concrete to rally for.
Next up on repugs’ agenda – xenophobia via teh “illegal immigrants” are going to bankrupt us by using HC.
http://www.rollcall.com/news/37825-1.html
You must much this clip of Sean Hannity being a huge hypocrite about the public option and the health care debate. Everyone knows he is a hypocrite, but this is blatant.
Here is the clip.
http://progressnotcongress.org/?p=2603
When I see these results I wonder if people are truly being sincere.
Some of my right wing nutjob colleagues say outrageous things and when I challenge them on it, they back down. But then, I’ll see them make the same outrageous charge to someone else and forget about the conversation we had.
I see it this way. The only way conservatives see a way of regaining power is to lie, lie, lie. If enough people believe the lie, then they win in their minds. They lie to each other, lie at the town halls, lie when interviewed, lie when polled, lie lie lie.
It’s a power game to them and they truly feel the means justifies the end. And, if a lie is required to win, then so be it.
What does this say about the overall intelligence of our citizens? That all the sterotypes are true about the stupid Americans. No wonder Europeans laugh at us.
@BBQ: Oh good grief. The Repubs have been trying to blame the media for their woes for years and years now and it hasn’t worked. What makes you think this will work for Dems? Liam’s point is very sound. At the very least you have to accuse the WH of employing poor strategery.
Folks,
You need to stop with all those media excuses. It is what it is. I backed President Obama all the way, and he had no trouble getting his message across during the election cycle. He was able to overcome all sorts of media distractions, such as that Rev. Wright period, so I will not use the media excuse now.
He has been far too passive, and vague on the Health Insurance Reform issue. He has left me, one of his most ardent supporters, completely uncertain as to what his bottom line is on the Key Catalyst for Health Insurance Reform, namely; a Public Option, is. He waffles and waffles about it.
The irony is that he said that he will only sign a bill that will absolutely slow down, and eventually reduce the sky rocking costs of health care. That can not be done, without having the Public Option as the critical catalyst to achieving such cost controls, and yet, to this very day, President Obama has not taken a absolute stand, that he has to have that Public Option, or he will veto the bill.
That is not the media’s fault. That is his.
It is the height of irony that this is an NBC and Wall Street Journal poll since both outlets have debunked most of those same cannards but they did so belatedly AND they presented them as questions of fact at least in the beginning. This isn’t about messaging, this is about the media failing the citizenry in an effort to further he said she said journalism so as not to be labeled liberals. Such is the state of journalism now much of the mainstream
“This isn’t about messaging, this is about the media failing the citizenry in an effort to further he said she said journalism so as not to be labeled liberals. Such is the state of journalism now much of the mainstream”
God thank you. Thank you thank you thank you.
If we haven’t figured out by now that the media is really really messed up here, then I don’t know what the last 8 to 10 years online have been about, since it’s mostly about the media and how its failed democracy, badly.
sbj – yet another smooth republican lie. 99% of media and talk radio are tools & shills for the RW agenda and yet you claim the opposite. Typical repug tactic.
To SG’s point, if you haven’t read Rick Perlstein’s piece, do. He also did a live chat at WaPo yesterday.
article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2009/08/14/ST2009081402964.html?sid=ST2009081402964
chat:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2009/08/14/DI2009081402554.html?sid=ST2009081402964
Well…this isn’t surprising considering the messaging out of WH/Dems has been a little inconsistant, although there is no final bill, there should have been highlights that they stuck too regardless of the GOP lying nonsense, if they weren’t prepared for “death panels” they only have themselves to blame for this one, as the GOP did the same exact thing during the healthcare debate under Clinton…that being said…the media has a strong role in this…it is utterly ridiculous that it took weeks for the MSM to begin pushing back on this nonsense, I would have thought that the MSM “journalists” would have learned a lesson about reporting factual information when we had the whole WMD/Iraq War debacle, but obviously we are giving them too much credit. You can’t really blame “tea-baggers” and “wingers” for attaching onto the “death panel” argument, because that is really all they have at this point, you can blame GOP elected officials for not calling this out earlier, especially when many of them authored the very same type of end-of-life legislation themselves, but again they are also desperate to have some sort of relevance. But the WH and Dems now need to lead on this issue…it is one of the main issues that they ran on and they were voted in with an overwhelming majority. The GOP can boo/hiss/whine all it wants, but after all of the “drama” they have encouraged at these townhall meetings, when you dig down into the polls, the American people may be split on how the Prez/Dems are handling this very big issue right now, but be very assured – the majority of the American people DO NOT trust the GOP or approve of the GOP to handle this issue, they may be getting their “base” all excited and drumming up noise that calls the overall issue into question with others outside the base, but at the end of the day healthcare reform will pass and this time next year the GOP will continue to look like the political obstructionists that they have become.
The administration doesn’t know WHAT it contains because they didn’t write it you idiots! That was your girl Pelosi and her cohort Reid! Wake up idiot America!
I have been mulling over the macro indicators for the country’s economic prospects, and I have come to the conclusion, that the way the Oligarchs have stripped the country of all most all of it’s once mighty industrial production capacity, health care reform is probably the least of our problems. The the deck has been stacked against the working class every getting back on their feet.Odds are, that in the not too distant future, the country will only be able to offer good health care to the small percentage of very wealthy people.
The Oligarchs are bleeding it to death. Transfusions from China, that we have to pay back with even more of the nation’s life blood, is the real health care crisis, and no one is doing a damn thing about it.
Reality Check:
Without a jingle in the working classes pockets, then it does not matter how cheaply items are produced overseas. When the vast working classes have no disposable income, then the American Oligarchs short term gain, by shipping all the jobs out, to starvation wages and living conditions, countries, will end up destroying those businesses.
One of the major cancers in modern America is that the Republican Party has been taken over by the Jefferson Davis regional party. They still have the same mentally about the use of labor as they did before the civil war. Look at how well that worked in the old South. They did not pay any labor force, so no one had any money to spend on local economies, and even the Plantation owners had to import almost all manufactured items. Where labor is downtrodden, or held in bondage, only the slave masters prosper.
From 1946 until the coming of Reagan, industry thrived in the USA, and so did the working middle class. When you refuse to pay people a good wage, and instead ship their jobs out, while still expecting them to purchase your imported products, you shall reap the whirlwind.
America’s days as a thriving nation, with an abundance of good paying working labor class jobs , has been destroyed by the Outsourcing Oligarchs. We are just starting to experience the results of that exercise in greed and perfidy.
Look what that policy has wrought.
We mass manufacture and export nothing worthwhile, anymore. That means that we provide no good paying jobs for those who are not college material.
We import everything, we once manufactured. America invented the Television and Computer industries, and yet we no longer manufacture any here at home.
When you stop manufacturing items, you then stop doing all research and design on such products. That means that we no longer have any need for engineers to develop and produce the products. That cedes all the future technological innovations, to those countries that are still manufacturing consumer products. That is why the country that first mass produced TV sets, has no hand in the future of large flat panel displays, such as LCD, Plasma, or OLED.
Instead, we have created a huge balance of trade problem, that is bleeding the country to death. We spend all our money on goods from China, etc, then we borrow that money back from them, with interest, to spend on more of the stuff that they now manufacture, and sell to us.
This nation is on the edge of a precipice. When you have nothing to sell, and you have to borrow and borrow, to purchase from overseas, and your working class young people are left to wallow in despair, and then drift into crime, or become easy prey for hate groups to capture, then you are living in a era, where you are witnessing the death of a once great nation.
The Oligarchs are bleeding it to death. Transfusions from China, that we have to pay back with even more of the nation’s life blood, is the real health care crisis, and no one is doing a damn thing about it.
Have any of you people even read the bill? Do me a favor adn stop drinking kool-aid fro Huffington Post and CNN/MSNBC. Read it for yourselves! It states in the bill, that the govt. paid doctors will make decisions pertaining to this subject! No longer will you be the one pulling the plug on granny! Read it! Don’t be idiots!
“No one ever went broke underestimating the ignorance of the American people.”– H. L. Mencken
Or was it Palin?
Sg: “This isn’t about messaging, this is about the media failing the citizenry in an effort to further he said she said journalism so as not to be labeled liberals. Such is the state of journalism now much of the mainstream.”
I agree with Tena, this is dead on. You can say all you want about the White House’s muddled message, but do you really think they expected something so insanely specific as this “death panel” meme? This is a collossal failure on the part of the media, and frankly, if 45% of people actually believe this **** then, well, I dunno. I’m tempted to say they deserve what they get, but that would be cynical of me, no? I’m trying very hard not to be.
to Liam…you are a friggin’ idiot!
Here’s how I see this, and admittedly, it’s just me – but Obama is being compared to Hitler, but there isn’t one fact the opposition can point to that proves he’s anything like Hitler. In fact, rather than dictate to the country on this, Obama has tried to let Congress deal as much as possible with the details for that reason – to try first to reach a consensus.
Ok, we are at the point where it’s obvious no consensus will be reached.
Onto Phase 2.
@Liam: “When you stop manufacturing items, you then stop doing all research and design on such products. That means that we no longer have any need for engineers to develop and produce the products. That cedes all the future technological innovations, to those countries that are still manufacturing consumer products.”
That’s not true at all. I work for a multi-billion dollar company that manufactures nothing at all. Our workforce is more than 2/3rds engineers.
Censoring c*r*a*p*? Seriously?
Why do liberals constantly tell me Fox news is nothing but Republicans, but the other news agencies aren’t all Democrats? The whole reason for Fox’s success is that they made a news agency that filled a gaping hole made by the LACK of fairness! By the way, this also explains the reason Fox is overly popular with Americans and constantly beats its competitors numbers! It’s the only one of its kind!
i have never been polled and i certainly do not believe that lie and i am elderly
I second that Liam.
The green revolution is really our short term answer to a few of those problems. Also, the tax codes need to be fixed so as not to incentivize companies to move overseas and ship the products back to us. Americans want things and if they want them enough, they will produce them locally. There has to be a way to achieve this without complete isolationism that would stifle global markets.
Greg, FYI, I posted a comment with links to Rick Perlstein’s crazy tree article and yesterday’s live chat. Both at WaPo mother site. Both still awaiting moderation. Posted 15 minutes ago. That seems slow.
To Tena, the only reason Obama and the libs want Republican approval is beacause they don’t want total ownership of this when it goes bad…and it will. It is entirely too massive to maintain.. For one, it isn’t as successful as you would like to believe, for two those country’s combined populations are that of California! Can’t work on a scale of our magnitude! Not even close…
@sbj,
You are not the country, You are the exception that proves the rule. You are living in a fool’s paradise, and your job will not survive the coming tidal wave either.
China, S.Korea, Japan, and India are where all our consumer electronics are being researched and manufactured. Just because you happen to still survive on a tiny high ground atoll, does not mean that you will not eventually be submerged. You will be.
d_man: I don’t know why I’m engaging your “argument,” but here goes. Fox succeeds because it concentrates its audience. Why, if your right wing views are so intractable, would you want to turn on another news channel that at least pays lip service to the opposition? And as for your assertion that the other networks having nothing but Democrats, well, I really am almost at a loss for words. Sure, MSNBC has a thoroughly liberal prime-time lineup. Absolutely. But what about Morning Joe? What about its reliance on Pat Buchanan for “analysis”? What about Tweety’s frequent lapses into Beltway conventional wisdom? He even called G. Gordon Liddy his “pal” before he destroyed him on the birth certificate nonsense.
CNN? LOU DOBBS.
Mike, if the tax codes are fixed for companies who want to leave America for a cheaper venue, who fixes the amount of individual tax these ceo’s pay that also forces them to leave America? Tax the wealthy, tax the wealthy, tax the wealthy…eventually they catch on and leave the country! along with their companies!
@Mike from Arlington.
I have been mulling over the prospects for the green revolution establishing a manufacturing restoration in America, and unless we enact some form of outsourcing bans, the Oligarchs will ship most of those production job overseas also.
d_man, Fox isn’t overly popular, it is a one-off telling you guys what you want to hear. Everyone else is reporting the news (or not) and that spreads the market share. Only MSNBC delivers a liberal slant in prime time, thank God, and at least challenges the Fox CW.
Fox is not a serious news network, it is a propaganda machine.
@liam and mike: Hey, if y’all really feel that way then you would make great fans for Pat Buchanan! Isolationism is not the answer. We must adjust to survive in a global economy. My corporation employs people all over the world, including India and China and the US. We purchase products from all over the world, too. We are the number one supplier for parts in very popular consumer products – we merely contract to have them manufactured elsewhere – but they are researched and developed both here and abroad. I disagree with your take on this (and your talk of armageddon) completely.
d_man1230, if there is demand, the supply will be provided. If there is no incentive to produce the product overseas, the product will be made here.
You’re talking about some imaginary Atlas Shrugged economic theory that doesn’t exist but in the minds of the paranoid.
Holy **** sbj are you thick.
Did you miss where I said, “There has to be a way to achieve this without complete isolationism that would stifle global markets.”
Do you have some selective reading device?
Tell me cnn doesn’t slant left and I’ll laugh in your face! Besides Lou Dobbs, tell me who is mainstream? Campbell Brown, Anderson Cooper, don’t make me laugh
Lets talk about Katie Couric, Geroge Steph…whatever, Bryan Williams…hmmm, really mainstream. Every time George Stephanopoulos opens his mouth, I feel like vomiting.
@mike: You know, I did miss that part! You can’t really “second’ Liam without embracing isolationism.
No Fox definitely fills a niche market for people tired of the one-sided bias in media. Call them right-leaning all you want. They’re necessary when the rest of the guys fall-over left!
When I think about it this shouldn’t be shocking.
George Bush got elected as President of the United States TWICE!!!! Supposedly that takes a majority, so that supposed majority either believes or pretends to believe the healthcare bill will include “death panels.”
Anyone who would believe anything a Republican says at this point is stupid to the core or self-serving to the core.
Folks,
Do not waste your time on this guy. He is one of those fools, just like Joe The Plumber, who has been captivated by the Bloodsucker’s Serenade, and of course you will always have those who suffer from Stockholm Syndrome, and start defending the Health Insurance Leeches, who are stealing them blind, without contributing not a damn thing to health care services.
I give the Republican party which includes Rush and company a grade of FD for its part in misleading their followers. I give the media — specifically Fox News — a grade of FD for capitalizing on the deliberate misbehavior based on lack of facts, even inciting such behavior (NBC) that had nothing to do with health care reform. I give Barney Frank a grade of A for standing up and I give the White House and all other Democrats a grade of C- for how they are handling the information sharing and the negative behaviors. BTW, FD is a new grade given in Canada — meaning failure with dishonesty.
sbj, I can “second” the part about manufacturing and well paying middle class jobs going away.
There is nothing isolationist in anything he said.
Heck, even Peter Schiff agrees the U.S.’s problem is we don’t make anything. Our economy is unsustainable at this rate.
We can’t just live off of consumption. We need to get into the business of building things.
I really enjoy hearing people go on and on about how the “media is what it is” and we should just play their little game.
The concept of the “Free Press” is one of the most important, fundamental tenents of our Democracy. And yet somehow people just excuse it away. It’s the FIRST Amendment, it’s right there with Free Speech – something every seems to be real fond of.
I don’t disagree that Pres. Obama hasn’t been messaging well enough in terms of getting the public his opinion on his side – but almost everything the WH says is put through a corporate filter before it gets to the average American.
If you are ok with the media as it is, if you feel that politicians should just “deal with it”, then you’re taking a stand that the First Amendment doesn’t really matter all that much. If a vast majority of the people in this country get their news from the media – then when a vast majority of people believe complete falsehoods…the blame doesn’t fall completely on the guy telling the truth. It falls heavily on the people reporting it, and HOW they report it.
The WH messaging on Health Care Reform HAS been shoddy. It’s not nearly what it could be, and I hope for better when they get back from recess. But the idea that the WH should just “deal with it” and play by the rules of a media who cares more about controversy and gossip than informing the public – it’s moronic.
What falsehoods, it is in the bill or was on page 435. Bottom line if you old and not in best of health even obama said on tv that it might be better to just give someone a pill rather than a more expensive medical treatment such as sgy. This plus the counceling to ease your transistion(death) by mecidal means. Lots of gov double speak that say he has it already set to establish panels of gove beauracrats to determin you life or death based upon cost and how much money they can rape from you. This is a corrupt and backwar plan that returns to the dark ages.
The incentive, Mike, to product here would be low (or no depending if you believe in the fair tax) individual taxes on the wealthy ceo’s, including corporate tax incentives. It’s getting more and more hostile to be an American business owner/ceo here in the states. Everybody wants to slam Halliburton for moving part of their headquarters to the Middle East…if it’s cheaper and more efficient and that country embraces corporations, instead of spitting on them (like this country is starting to do) they’ll stay here. I don’t blame them.
can’t argue with these people James, they don’t respond well to facts
@mike: You are smarter than to throw your support behind Liam. “captivated by the Bloodsucker’s Serenade?” C’mon, dude. Get off that train – it’s headed for a cliff!
Think there was even talk about removing that part (that didn’t exist) because people were disgusted! Don’t waste time with people who get their information from left-wing blogs. Facts are wasted on the wrong people
So…the Republican Party has evolved from being merely the party of “No” to the party of “stupid”?
It is really alarming to see that so much of this idiocy has taken root. Good grief, differences of opinion are a given; how can one combat this kind of thing?
It does point to the fact that Obama, et al. are off message, and also that they must re-adopt the tactics they used so brilliantly during the campaign, to counter this absurdity.
Republican propaganda would rather have people die than get insurance.
So now the Republicans stand for what.
Torture – Check
Dead Americans – Check
Elderly unable to pay for voluntary end of life counseling – Check
Endless Wars – Check
Low wages for corporate profits – Check
Anything I’m missing James?
BBQ…and when people ask questions or make statements at townhall meetings, they’re called racists and nazi’s. They’re talked down to by the likes of Barney Frank and Sheila Jackson Lee adn Arlen Specter.
Do you know why they haven’t done a good enough job of explaining whats in the bill…because they are JUST STARTING TO READ IT!
Ask you buddy Obama about endless wars Mike!
Oh wait, if the annointed one says we have to be in two wars, it’s ok, just not Bush.
@sbj,
Take your “isolationism” meme, and engineer it into a place where the sun don’t shine.
The type of trade you support is not fair trade, it is trade that has destroyed the working middle class, by shipping all their good paying production jobs out to starvation wage locations, and doomed the American communities to a future of declining tax bases, and minimum wage jobs, and not enought of them, to support any family or community.
You described what you do, and it is exactly what is wrong with all you post industrial American dystopians.
You are creating manufacturing jobs overseas, and you want the Americans, who no longer have those jobs, to still purchase the **** that you manufacture and import. Dream on. The balance of trade imbalance, and the massive borrowing back of the money we squander on that imbalance, is leading America into a future,where the few have wealth beyond all justification, and the vast majority will like paupers. That is what all your unfair trade machinations has wrought.
You are building China into a mighty industrial power, while tearing down all that made America strong.
“The incentive, Mike, to product here would be low”
The incentive, not just a monetary one, would be a healthier nation as a whole. Higher wages to spend more. Products made HERE is the USA.
Just looking over my desk I got a phone made in Mexico. A computer made in Mexico. A cup made in China. A fan made in China. A phone made in Taiwan.
Oh wait, I found a paper notebook made in Iowa! We still make paper notebooks people. No need to worry. We’re good.
Seriously, something is wrong here. If those jobs aren’t coming back then Americans should be smart enough to figure out a way to incentivize companies to produce future generation products here in the USA.
I’d be willing to pay just a little bit more for homemade products.
Would you?
Hey d_man, so I guess by your lack of a denial, you’re for the death of Americans if it means the insurance companies keep making ridicules profits right?
Torture…never really happened. Your confused with the Taliban sawing people’s heads off and taking thief’s hands off.
Dead Americans…hmm, like the ones that have died in Afghanistan and Iraq since this administration is obviously continuing BOTH the wars
Elderly unable to pay for end of life counseling…that’s just creepy. Are you freakin’ serious? You tell my granny you wanna pull her plug and she’s liable to bite your ear off!
Low wages for corporate profit…when you decide to stop flipping burgers and work up the management ladder, maybe you can have some of those profits. Nobody said you can’t, if you put in a little hard work. But that would require you to put extra effort in. Don’t tell me a burger flipper deserves the same compensation as his boss does.
I have been mulling over the macro indicators for the country’s economic prospects, and I have come to the conclusion, that the way the Oligarchs have stripped the country of all most all of it’s once mighty industrial production capacity, health care reform is probably the least of our problems. The deck has been stacked against the working class every getting back on their feet. Odds are, that in the not too distant future, the country will only be able to offer good health care to the small percentage of very wealthy people.
Reality Check:
Without a jingle in the working classes pockets, then it does not matter how cheaply items are produced overseas. When the vast working classes have no disposable income, then the American Oligarchs short term gain, by shipping all the jobs out, to starvation wages and living conditions, countries, will end up destroying those businesses.
One of the major cancers in modern America is that the Republican Party has been taken over by the Jefferson Davis regional party. They still have the same mentally about the use of labor as they did before the civil war. Look at how well that worked in the old South. They did not pay any labor force, so no one had any money to spend on local economies, and even the Plantation owners had to import almost all manufactured items. Where labor is downtrodden, or held in bondage, only the slave masters prosper.
From 1946 until the coming of Reagan, industry thrived in the USA, and so did the working middle class. When you refuse to pay people a good wage, and instead ship their jobs out, while still expecting them to purchase your imported products, you shall reap the whirlwind.
America’s days as a thriving nation, with an abundance of good paying working labor class jobs , has been destroyed by the Outsourcing Oligarchs. We are just starting to experience the results of that exercise in greed and perfidy.
Look what that policy has wrought.
We mass manufacture and export nothing worthwhile, anymore. That means that we provide no good paying jobs for those who are not college material.
We import everything, we once manufactured. America invented the Television and Computer industries, and yet we no longer manufacture any here at home.
When you stop manufacturing items, you then stop doing all research and design on such products. That means that we no longer have any need for engineers to develop and produce the products. That cedes all the future technological innovations, to those countries that are still manufacturing consumer products. That is why the country that first mass produced TV sets, has no hand in the future of large flat panel displays, such as LCD, Plasma, or OLED.
Instead, we have created a huge balance of trade problem, that is bleeding the country to death. We spend all our money on goods from China, etc, then we borrow that money back from them, with interest, to spend on more of the stuff that they now manufacture, and sell to us.
This nation is on the edge of a precipice. When you have nothing to sell, and you have to borrow and borrow, to purchase from overseas, and your working class young people are left to wallow in despair, and then drift into crime, or become easy prey for hate groups to capture, then you are living in a era, where you are witnessing the death of a once great nation.
The Oligarchs are bleeding it to death. Transfusions from China, that we have to pay back with even more of the nation’s life blood, is the real health care crisis, and no one is doing a damn thing about it.
…………..
That was not intended to describe you, it was about that d..man cretin.
It is a good line though, and got your attention.
“Captivated by the Bloodsucker’s Serenade”. Damn, I am proud of that piece of spontaneous creativity.
d_man,
Do you even know what end of life counseling is? It is when an elderly person voluntarily speaks with their own PERSONAL doctor in private about care of their own life in the event something tragic may happen.
Currently, elderly are required to flip the bill for this kind of counseling with their own private doctor. This bill was only going to provide monetary coverage for this type of counseling.
The fight against this from ignoramuses like Palin has been mind boggling. Her ignorance and statements is partly responsible for the possibility elderly wouldn’t have the option for this kind of counseling with their family doctor because they can’t afford it.
# mike from Arlington | August 19th, 2009 at 01:14 pm
“The incentive, Mike, to product here would be low”
The incentive, not just a monetary one, would be a healthier nation as a whole. Higher wages to spend more. Products made HERE is the USA.
Just looking over my desk I got a phone made in Mexico. A computer made in Mexico. A cup made in China. A fan made in China. A phone made in Taiwan.
Oh wait, I found a paper notebook made in Iowa! We still make paper notebooks people. No need to worry. We’re good.
Seriously, something is wrong here. If those jobs aren’t coming back then Americans should be smart enough to figure out a way to incentivize companies to produce future generation products here in the USA.
I’d be willing to pay just a little bit more for homemade products.
Would you?
…………………………
We have to, if we are going to remain a strong industrial nation.
I love how all those Right Wing War Mongers, who keep beating the drums of war, are the ones who want to get rid of all the production capacity we would need to be able to convert to weapons production, were we to get into a major war, with China, for example
As things now stand, we have build up China’s Industrial might, while sacrificing our own.
What about the National Security risk that we have taken, by doing so.
Where China to impose an Air and Sea embargo around Japan, and stop shipping products to us, then we would be screwed. We do not even have any fabric and clothing mills left.
The Oligarchs, and their Republican handmaidens, have left us completely vulnerable to such a future situation.
Hell, they even wanted to close all our domestic car manufacturers. Think about that. Those people will not rest until we are a nation of many beggars and a few super wealty overlords.
It is insanity to say that nearly half of American believe this BS. Is the poll a representative of over 300million American? This is a sample of say between 1000-2500 people for God sake
I hope this is not shocking anyone. Nearly half the people voted against Obama and many of those think he’s an illegal immigrant.
AMK, SBJ, and @BBQ,
The republicans have been beating the drum of media unfairness since the time when they started and controlled the media. Most of the traditional media outlets are either own or controlled by the right.
Republicans have been screaming about how bad and unfair the media is to them while they have been able to get their messages out unhampered through the same outlets they criticize. So, when you hear the republicans complain about media coverage you should realize that that is their song and dance.
Thanks to the media for giving Sarah Palin a platform. Why I don’t know. She is not a governor anymore she is just an average joe like the rest of us. And she hides behind her facebook page and throw out all this garbage. She doesn’t have the nerve to come out and say this so that people can challenge her. Until the media stops giving her air time until she makes herself available she can say whatever she wants.
Then that half of Americans are morons.
And now you know why the Republic party has tried repeatedly to de-fund the Department of Education. A dumbed-down populace serves their ends perfectly. Pathetic.
We need a tax on calories, with a monthly prebate. If the normal adult man uses 3,000 calories a day, then a prebate of $30 (0ne penny per calorie) would be given, and a one cent per calorie at point of sale would be collected.
Nutrition is a key to cutting down on medical care.
“That question is too wide open. Isn’t it true now that certain medical treatments are withheld from elderly patients? How many 90-year-olds get organ transplants?”
idiocracy and inane question. you’ve obviously never had to get an organ transplant. The way it works now:
1) said 90 yr old discovers the need for an organ transplant
2) 90 yr old and her doctor discuss options
3) if 90 yr old wants to fight, then she gets on the waiting list like everyone else
4) if 90 yr old is lucky enough and donor organ is found and she is next on the waiting list, she contacts health insurance company to check to see if cost is covered
5) health insurance company denies claim.
6) 90 yr old will not have to foot the entire bill herself or die
This year’s winner for the Black Helicopter Oscar goes to “Death Panels”, Sarah Palin producer.
Formally known as The Tin Foils, past winners honored were “Water Fluoridation.” You can’t taste the brain wash. “White House to Vatican Tunnel Completed.” So Pope can command President Kennedy. “Moon Landings Staged on Hollywood Lot.” Now part of the Universal Studios tour. “President Clinton is Coming to Take Our Guns!” I still have mine. And all-time champ, “Iraq has WMDs!” Where was the “Tea Party” rage on that trillion dollar flush?
One can’t miss what they never had. Take away what one has? Different story. So do a GoogleTomorrow search for these future black helicopters.
August 31, 2011. (UPI 2.0) “Health Care Fails. Obama Terminates Medicare.” A bitter Secretary Oprah Winfrey of the renamed Dept. of NoHealth and InHuman Services declared, “If socialized medicine is only good for just some, then nobody get’s it. It’s just un American … So pony up!” Cletus Hatfield of Backwater, West Virginia said, “Good. I wanted to pay more anyway.” Hatfield’s neighbor, Clem McCoy, wanted to disagree, but didn‘t. However. The other 38,000,000 affected by their take away all fainted in unison. Their collective ‘thunk’ resulted in California dropping into the sea.
May 20, 2012. (Business Weak) Citing sky rocketing health care costs, “Plans for Nevada’s Pacific Coast Retirement Communities Abandoned.” Disappointed investor Palin whined, “I guess that all-for-one and one-for-all Medicare thingy worked pretty good at that, then there, huh?”
February 18, 2013 (Huffn’Puff.com) “President Mark Sanford Privatizes Military” saying, “There’s nothing in the Constitution that says it can’t make a profit.” Our First Lady of Appalachia, Argentina will oversee the transition to Blackwater, Inc. Asked how this will affect the VA, Sanford asked back, “Does it make a profit?”
The next day. (Fox Skews) “Glorious Leader VP Palin Assumes Presidency after Failed Military Coup.” In a terse acceptance speech she bragged, “Thank Jesus I had my secret black helicopter fleet ready.”
2014 1/2 (MSNBCLies.com) “Palin Resigns.” Sensing a shift from those wanting their socialist-loving government health care plans back, remorseful Democrats now support Medicare’s revival. But only if “Death Panels” are part of the final bill. Senate minority leader Al Franken spewed, “If we hold out long enough, we’ll get all those useless grannies permanently ‘retired’.”
Of course these are just big lies. But it’s sure sad that some are naive enough to believe that one big lie. So don’t forget Palin’s immortal words on her ‘I Quit’ Day, “So. How ’bout. In honor of the American soldier? Ya quit makin’ things up.” (Apparently our troops are honored by anybody not “lying” about her. Stunningly self absorbed and diva centric.) But of course “Death Panels“ don’t apply because she crossed her fingers.
Paul Krugman fired a good shot at the Church of Palintology by writing, “All that stands in the way of universal health care is greed, lies and gullibility.” I hope it’s a hit.
Really don’t want to jump to the dark side here, but–
Many elderly are dependent on Medicare for all of their healthcare needs. Medicare, which can be defined as a “government-run” health-care plan, does determine, like any other health insurance plan, which medical procedures are covered and which are not covered. If an elderly person is unable to pay for a procedure that is not covered by Medicare, then one could quite correctly argue that the government already “makes decisions about when to stop providing medical care to the elderly.”
Leave it to Fox to skew the results of a poll.
The ship has sailed on American dominance in manufacturing folks. You can’t buy an American TV, piece of clothing, any kind of a toy, anything at all; even if you wanted to pay twice as much. The unions have gradually sucked all the blood out of these manufacturing companies and they have set sail, and they will not return. How about the US automotive business? GM, Chrysler, Delphi, Visteon, Lear, etc. etc. all bankrupt. Why do you suppose that is? Because they don’t build cars people want? What a joke. Three years ago they couldn’t build enough trucks and SUVs to keep up with demand. Now people say they are idiots for not making micro cars that run off batteries. Huh? And yes, the technology and the engineering DOES ABSOLUTELY follow. Don’t kid yourself. This is a bed that has been made for a long long time. Now we have to sleep in it…. Pleasant Dreams….
Why won’t these stupid Americans just shut up and do what Dear Leader wants? It’s like they have minds of their own. Maybe if you just keep calling them idiots and showing clips of Lyndon Larouche (D. – Federal Prison) voters comparing Obama to the Nazis it will make the government takeover of healthcare more palatable.
If I cared about either, I would worry about the credibility of CNN and MSNBC as they claim any misgivings people express about Obamacare are based on myths. See most people don’t consider it persuasive to have David Shuster parrot Robert Gibbs and Linda Douglass. It is not a myth that the Obama/Reid/Pelosi plan will lead to a single payer system. Obama and Barney Frank are on tape saying this is their ultimate goal. Obama’s and Linda Douglass’s recent statements notwithstanding, this bell cannot be unrung we heard Obama say what he wants. Any reasonable review of the public option they are pushing (as far as I know, I haven’t read the headlines in the last 15 minutes, are they still pushing this?) show that it will rapidly lead to single payer.
And how, pray tell me, is it a myth that the bill will cover illegal aliens when all you people cry about is covering this mythical 48 or whatever million uninsured? At least one quarter of that number is illegal aliens. So in order to cover these people you cover illegal aliens – the fact that Dem politicians are smart enough not to write it into the bill doesn’t make it a myth. In case you didn’t know much of how the government works is through rules and regulations promulgated by government agencies to which Congress delegates power. This is also why you don’t have to spell out in the legislation what the so-called Death Panels will look like and how they will reach their determinations.
Of course these issues are related, and this is why David “moneybags” Axelrod, Greg, Josh, MSNBC, CNN, et al. have decided that the best way to avoid answering people’s legitimate concerns about Obamacare is to de-ligitimize those concerns. And yet the polls keep moving in the other direction. Try harder, maybe you aren’t lying fast enough.
Folks I talked to today believe in death panels, bank account access and more! Of course, I found that they also still believe that Saddam Hussein attacked us on 9/11!
d_man, torture happened. my bf, who was in the army, still has nightmares about what he witnessed and was ordered to do.
All this would be moot, if President Obama would just go on TV, and state: I must have a bill that contains a robust public option, because that is the only catalyst that will enable us to get future health care costs under control. Any bill that comes to my desk, that does not contain a robust public option, I will veto. The robust public option is not negotiable. I will not sign any bill that does not contain it.
The President is our CEO. He needs to start projecting that. He comes from a long background, in college, the state legislature, and the US Senate of trying to work to form a consensus. He is no longer in such an environment. He is the CEO of the country, and his job is to spell out what he wants done, and then demand that his congressional leaders get it done.
The funny (if there is anything funny about all this) part is: could any of the proponents of this lie name any of the Socialist country where health care “death panels” did actually exist? Not sure about North Korea, but there were no such thing in the former USSR.
There has been death panels in the USA for many years, every since the Private Health Insurance Groups got to decide who would not be covered, because of an existing condition, and who would be dropped from coverage because they had run up large medical treatment bills.
Hell, those Private Insurance Death Panels do not mind condemning very sick children to death.
Back in 2004, the Aetna Death Panel dropped eight million people from it’s coverage rolls, because they were perceived to be bad for the bottom line of the company.
Read all about it here:
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/07/02-2
Insurance companies decide when to pull our plug – and they don’t wait until we’re old, just sick. We are conditioned to believe that coverage is completely out of our control. We have been conditioned to believe that we live or die at the whim of the healthcare industry as it is. If they cure us, they bankrupt us. If they don’t want to cover us, they bankrupt us or we die. We pay for coverage with the same mentality as we play the lottery: you’ve got to be in it to win it.
Why wouldn’t this number of people believe that the government would protect itself from limitless coverage when it seems like standard procedure?
I would gander a guess that 1/2 of the responses of the 45% who say they believe this are just responding to the poll to damage Obama, democrats and influence the outcome of the debate going on in congress. In other words, they don’t really believe this ****, but, it does seem to be a convenient bludgeon!
It is really scary that our public is so ignorant of fact a large segment of the country believe dinosaurs were around at time of the cavemen. Sadam Hussain was behind 911 The President is an illegal alien how can civilized debate take place heck this is some poor backward nation this is the USA. I hate to say it but I am more and more embarrassed by the stupidity of some and how the media repeat what these fools say without saying wait a minutes this viewpoint is crazy. Looks like home schooling is starting to show
The Republicans have sunk to a new low saying that Obama is going to set up a Nazi-style euthanasia program. As a historian, I know all too well what a can of worms they’ve opened with that one. Many people from that Nazi T-4 Program “graduated” to running death camps and “special action units” in Poland and Russia, including Christian Wirth, the founder of the first death camp in Poland, and later supervisor of three death camps; Franz Stangl, the commander of Treblinka, and Walther Rauff, the designer of “special” vehicles with the exhaust running in the back. Even the term “Sonderbehandlung” (Special Treatment)came from the T-4 Program.
In short, the Republicans have compared Obama and the Democrats to the worst criminals in history–the organizers and perpetrators of what later came to be called the Holocaust. They came right out of that euthanasia program, where they first got experience in mass killing in gas chambers.
Now, if the Democrats just sit back and let the opposition spread lies like that, then they will sit back and take anything. They will deserve to lose.
Thanks CNN! MSNBC, Fox! Thanks WaPo, Politico
And special special thanks to the retarded Mrs. Palin (soon to be divorcee).
The baby boomers need to hurry and die.
It is certain and proper that some medical care will continue to be withheld from the elderly partly because of its cost and the lack of use they will get from it. If government pays it will have to decide what it pays for. So it’s NOT a “fib” and the CORRECT answer is “likely”, or “MORE than likely”. The “fib” was introducing the idea that this had anything to do with end of life counseling, which Palin did not suggest in her Facebook post. So Greg Sargent is lying when he says that Palin fibbed, while Palin was right to say that Obama’s plan will result in government gaining greater control of the rationing but wrong to object to the inevitable rationing itself. It is a measure of the media’s failure to present the truth that Sargent’s fib is widely presented as fact. E.g., see Calvin Woodward’s misnamed “Fact Check” for AP where he falsely asserts in passing that it was critics of Obamacare that conflated end of life counseling with “death panels” when it was actually the defenders that initially did that.
When will Progressives start talking about the Death Panels sitting in the lobby or on the Boards of Health Insurance who, by denying care & making insurance unaffordable kill over 18,000 Americans per year?
It may not be Hitler, but the U.S. that the GOP envisions looks a lot like Josef Mengele’s, instead.
Isn’t it silly to debate a bill that isn’t a bill yet but rather 5 “maybe” bills all subject to change.Something wrong with the system that does that mind bender on their constituents. How would people know what they were agreeing to or arguing against. It’s a joke to refer to this as Obamacare becuase all five of these proposals have more of a Congressional footprint than a Presidential one. What a way to run a nation.
death panels?? – what do you guys think the insuance companies do when they deny coverage or deny claims?
WATCH THIS AND PASS ON: OLD VIDEO OF RUSH LIMBAUGH BEING SUBJECTED TO TOWN HALL STYLE INTERRUPTIONS.
http://www.panopticist.com/2006/02/a_bully_gets_bullied_why_rush_limbaugh.php
The republican lies continue to grow. A significant part of the country still thinks that we were attacked by Iraq on 9/11. There is also a place in hell for liars.
Fib? This in itself is disinformation. While the bill did not specifically have a death panel, it did have an end of life counseling provision which was taken out when the pressure got hot. Palin was simply predicting how such a provision might be misinterpreted or massaged once it was passed into law. Seems like a pretty rational fear considering how badly we run the post office, medicare, social security, and medicaid.
This subject line is saying nearly half of Americans are ignorant.It also means GOP lies widely spreading the falsehood. Or, President Obama has a problem of “Trust” among Americans.Then, the majority elected president must take drastic measure to level down opposition for the benefit of his voters. Or, cut off the opposition within the government and pass the health care reform bill.
In Soviet Russia, elderly ARE death panel.