Rockefeller Rips Dean: “Nonsense … Irresponsible … Stunning … Wrong”
Wow, this is really something. Senator Jay Rockefeller, who recently emerged as something of a public option hero on the left, just tore into Howard Dean on MSNBC, ripping Dean’s call on Dems to kill the Senate bill as “nonsense,” and demanding that the left stop “sulking” and start acting like “grownups.”
Asked by Andrea Mitchell about Dean’s opposition, Rockefeller said: “It’s nonsense. And it’s irresponsible. And coming from him as a physician, it’s stunning. And he’s wrong. Does that answer your question?”
Pressed by Mitchell to defend the bill despite the jettisoning of core liberal priorities, Rockefeller cited the 85% of insurance company revenues to be spent be spent on health care, the closing of much of the Medicare “donut hole,” and the mandate coverage for 31 million people, among other things.
Then Rockefeller really got started.
“Am I angry that the public option appears to have been dropped? Of course I’m angry about that,” he said. “Was I for the Medicare buy-in? Of course I was…So what do I do? Do I take my football and run home and sulk?”
Rockefeller still wasn’t finished. “I’m a grownup, you’re a grownup,” he said. “We’ve been around this business for a long time. And you never get everything you want. You don’t sulk about it. You try to keep improving the bill.”
Strong stuff! The substance of his dispute with Dean aside, it’s interesting to note that Rockefeller would be far less likely to offer such a stern dressing down to, say, Joe Lieberman, whose views on health care likely rankle Rockefeller far more than Dean’s do.
But then again, Lieberman has been allowed to effectively hijack this process, which means he’s holding a gun to the head of reform. Dean, meanwhile, is just some silly lefty ranting on the sidelines, so there’s no downside to venting in his direction.
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Start acting like grown-ups. Wouldn’t that be a breath of fresh air.
Sadly, I think Rockefeller is correct. There is enough good in this bill to pass it. And, if it is not passed, no way another bill gets through this Congress.
Nate Silver also just had a bit of a smack down on the “Kill the Bill”‘ers probably worthy of an afternoon wrap-up since this seems to be the story of the day and minds are being swayed as we speak as people access blogs, news and the such.
The only ones not being swayed either one way or another of course are the tea-baggers. They do whatever Dick Armey and his keepers, The Koch Family, tell them to do.
Seriously though, what is Dean’s deal? Is he bitter that he got punted after 2008?
We pass this somewhat (although by no means completely) sub-standard bill, or we get no bill, essentially ever. Seriously, I’m as liberal as they come- wish the US had a viable answer to Canada’s NDP, but have the Progressive activists become absolutely retarded? Did they like a handrail after a Tea Partier touched it? I just don’t understand.
*bangs head on desk*
Of course, Rockefeller doesn’t refute anything Howard Dean said. He just points his finger & calls Howard names.
“Strong stuff! The substance of his dispute with Dean aside, it’s interesting to note that Rockefeller would be far less likely to offer such a stern dressing down to, say, Joe Lieberman, whose views on health care likely rankle Rockefeller far more than Dean’s do.
But then again, Lieberman has been allowed to effectively hijack this process, which means he’s holding a gun to the head of reform. Dean, meanwhile, is just some silly lefty ranting on the sidelines, so there’s no downside to venting in his direction.”
Spot on. Rockefeller is p*ssed that he just got his a** rolled over by Joe Lieberman, so he’s taking it out on those that are criticizing him for letting it happen.
@Tena
Should that go for Lieberman too? Is it responsible for a grown up to give a screaming child whatever they want, every time they scream for it?
@wvng
Agreed. It sucks, and I’d like the progressive members to use the tactic Kos pointed out earlier today: Make an amendment stripping the mandate, get it co-sponsered by an anti-government Republican, and put it up for a vote. Make Republicans go on record on the mandate.
That amendment would likely fail, then just pass the bill as is. Take it to conference, likely not put the PO back in…but use that as leverage to pull the rest of the bill left.
Won’t be perfect, but would still be worth it.
If the Jay Rockefellers had shown this much spunk from day one, the entire process might have developed differently.
“# cab91 | December 16th, 2009 at 04:07 pm
Of course, Rockefeller doesn’t refute anything Howard Dean said. He just points his finger & calls Howard names.”
You must have glanced over this quote where he laid out some reforms occurring.
“ressed by Mitchell to defend the bill despite the jetissoning of core liberal priorities, Rockefeller cited the 85% of insurance company revenues to be spent be spent on health care, the closing of much of the Medicare “donut hole,” and the mandate coverage for 31 million people, among other things.”
I’ll tell you what though. Lieberman coming out in such a dickish way as he has been has taken the heat off of Lincoln, Nelson and Landrieu lately. I’m sure they appreciate not being asked every five minutes by a reporter trying to get the scoop on if they support A, and why or why not and if they will filibuster, etc. I’m sure that drives them coocoo.
I think the Senate Democrats are ANGRY right now because they have worked so damn hard on this.
I think Dean should have said that the House should push hard in the conference to get a good compromise instead of saying just kill the bill.
I take Rocky’s points well … but it certainly is true that all anger gets spewed at guys like Dean while freaking Lieberman gets the kid gloves. Infuriating. And as for ‘not getting everything we want,’ exactly what did Joe not get?
yes, exactly, what JRock said.
BBQ – It is if that screaming child is holding the dog hostage and threatens to stuff it down the toilet. Or say – the family kitten – if that gets to you better.
BBQ – I figure the people who work with Lieberman know how to get him to bend better than we do.
Cause so far, all the left has done has stoked Lieberman’s overwhelming desire for schadenfreude and boy did he score this time.
“Dean, meanwhile, is just some silly lefty ranting on the sidelines”
There’s a real piece of truth!
“reaking Lieberman gets the kid gloves”
Yeah, I agree it is – but do you have any idea how much Lieberman enjoys the idea that you are furious and totally unable to do anything about it?
It’s all very well to act like everything is fair, but it’s not and just because we’re right about something doesn’t mean that going at it head on is the smartest way to get anything accomplished.
If Joe wants to be a nasty, immature little man, there’s not much you can do besides try to keep him quiet.
He’s pointman on other Democratic legislation. Josh Marshall pointed that out yesterday. I’m sure if they can figure a way to not need Joe they would have done it.
Rockefeller’s done much more to improve health care in this country than Howard Dean, Arianna Huffington or Jane Hamsher will ever do.
Andrew – word.
What is Rocky going to do? Rant against Lieberman…a senator he has to work with as long as there are 40 Republican yahoos fillibustering everything.
When Lieberman is no longer the 60th vote: 1)He’ll effectively be booted out of the caucus 2)You’ll hear what the Dem senators he stabbed in the back really think of the guy.
They’re biting their tongues now.
Andrew–thirded.
All the screaming in the world wouldn’t have changed Lieberman’s opinion.
I’m still more than half convinced the whole thing is kabuki to keep Lieberman from deciding he can’t be for this bill either. The man flat out admitted to the NYT that Weiner and Dean’s approval of the Medicare buy in was what convinced him a policy he proposed when he was running for president and supported three months ago was actually a terrible, terrible thing. But if Howard’s serious, same outcome, so I really don’t care either way.
“But then again, Lieberman has been allowed to effectively hijack this process”
Allowed? are you kidding me? how would you stop him? I know I know, reconciliation, blah blah blah.
Listen they made the calculation that that path was too dangerous, that they would loss Senators like Jim Webb and others. Which they would. So how do you get to 50?
The Senate sucks. deal with it. Improve this latter.
Also, learn some history, Medicare and Medicate got passed because of some pretty disgusting compromises with industry, and they were improved later.
I know its not cable news ****, one big dramatic blow to the evil corporations. But you “progressives” need start reading more than the headlines at Huffingtonpost and look at how much this administration is accomplishing!
It’s exasperating, but I think Dean and Rockefeller are both right at this point. The pols have to govern, and as Harkin said on Maddow last night this is a start on the way to getting a better and better system. Dean and other activists on the left need to criticize and cajole and keep the discourse on the substance of what is at stake. Since the right is only lying about the facts of HC and HCR, the left needs to offer strong, clear alternatives. Between these two we may end up with something pretty useful: a bill that offers a beginning (and if the flaws cause havoc, there’s a chance that fixing them will get people to see that the insurance companies and the GOP are the enemy) and a party that tried so hard it tied itself in knots. The unity of the GOP is it’s weakness, not its strength. They ALL fall if the facts stay against them.
Rockefeller hit the nail on the head. It’s good to see someone call-out Dean.
Everyone knows it’s not a perfect bill, but it’s not an “insurance company’s dream” just because it doesn’t contain some progressive priorities.
After helping bring the process this far, it’s baffling to me that some progressives would rather just scrap the process than move forward with a priority for which they have been fighting for decades — a priority that can have a tangible, positive impact (see insurance recission reforms, subsidies that help reduce costs, an exchange that gives the consumer greater control, etc.) on the lives of millions of Americans.
fearmonger in chief: “The government is headed for bankruptcy if Congress doesn’t pass healthcare reform, President Obama warned today.
“…The president also issued a dire warning to individuals worried about their own insurance.
“If we don’t pass it, here’s the guarantee,” he told ABC. “Your premiums will go up, your employers are going to load up more costs on you…Potentially they’re going to drop your coverage, because they just can’t afford an increase of 25 percent, 30 percent in terms of the costs of providing health care to employees each and every year.”
“do you have any idea how much Lieberman enjoys the idea that you are furious and totally unable to do anything about it?”
Yes Tena..but remember the old adage…he who laughs last laughs best and lieberman’s smiling days are limited. Perhaps he’ll score the big laugh if he doesn’t plan to EVER run for office again and then slips off into the insurance company payrolls…IF they still need him by then. I personally believe we are going to be on the way to single payer sooner than we suspect because of the simple economics of our current health care system…it’s unsustainable and this bill does nothing to help contain costs.
What I’m most interested to see is what happens when all this is done. That is when Obama gets a bill…signs it…and takes a victory lap. Will we all hug and make up? Will Arianna and Markos move onto some other perceived slight…YES..YES..YES!!!
While this is a very important and historic bill…a lot of the histrionics that have accompanied it are simply a tempest in the teapot….as my wife always tells me about virtually any challenge in our lives…”It’ll work out…it always does!”
Clad in red and armed with Grinch dolls, grim reaper scarecrows, posters and their loud voices, several thousand tea party protesters rallied near the Capitol Tuesday to send a single message: “Kill the Bill.”
Howard Dean and Teabaggers agree.
I think some progressives live in la la land where wishes just come true is someone really means it and gets angry on their tv. That is why they like dean, he screams! Obama is too clam and too aware of the process and how to actually pass a bill that has been eluding democrats for 100 years. But he is a loser you know, cause, um, I don’t know he doesn’t force congress to act as an extension of DKos.
“the left needs to offer strong, clear alternatives. Between these two we may end up with something pretty f
BGinCHI – I agree with your whole comment. If Dean had kept pushing the Senate in the right direction, “offering strong clear alternative,” it would be great. But now he’s got people riled up over the idea of killing the bill.
@SBJ…I’m not sure I really capture your point…are you trying to deny…
“Your premiums will go up, your employers are going to load up more costs on you…Potentially they’re going to drop your coverage, because they just can’t afford an increase of 25 percent, 30 percent in terms of the costs of providing health care to employees each and every year.”
That has already happened in my business…where I live…we are no longer providing employees with health care…I’m certain we are not the only small business who has stopped doing so out of economic necessity. The premiums for my wife and me have skyrocketed double digits every year since I can remember…certainly in the past 7-8 years. THEY HAVE NEVER REMAINED FLAT OR INCREASED MARGINALLY!!!
So SBJ are you saying telling the truth is fear mongering?
rukidding – O god I hope you’re totally right and I’m not.
“personally believe we are going to be on the way to single payer sooner than we suspect because of the simple economics of our current health care system…it’s unsustainable and this bill does nothing to help contain costs.”
Awesome. That was always the best idea.
“…YES..YES..YES!!!”
LOL
I wouldn’t even make a bet on that one. No way.
@BGinCHI: “Dean and other activists on the left need to criticize and cajole and keep the discourse on the substance of what is at stake.”
Criticism is fine, but it should be responsible. When facts are being selectively chosen (see: mandate attacks versus independent policy analysis of the mandate) to support one’s aim, criticism ceases to be responsible.
Great post on the Mandate up at Benen, 20 mins ago:
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2009_12/021493.php
OT but this is interesting. The conservative movement keeps getting more and more fringy. Scary.
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/35371_John_Birch_Society_to_Cosponsor_CPAC_2010
@ruk: “I’m not sure I really capture your point.”
That Obama is engaging in the politics of fear. And that’s hypocritical.
Pretty simple, really.
If it was fear mongering for the Repubs to say: “If they pass the PO you may lose your employer-provided insurance.” Isn’t it fear mongering for Obama to say: “Pass the bill or you may lose your employer-provided insurance?”
Again I’ll say…it’ll work out it always does…it’s one thing to point out the bills inadequacies and scream and yell during the actual CRAFTING of the bill. Let’s see who says what once a bill is ACTUALLY before the Congress…after the House and Senate have combined their efforts into a REAL BILL to be voted on…I predict we may be surprised to find out WHO votes for the legislation…some of the loudest objectors will suddenly wish to be part of history…wait and see.
Tena | December 16th, 2009 at 04:04 pm
“Start acting like grown-ups. Wouldn’t that be a breath of fresh air.”
It’s insults like this, “tena”, where you pick a fight, and then act like you didn’t that really offends me.
You are an @sshole, “tena”, and that’s fine, but pretending that you aren’t also makes you a hypocrite and that kind of deceit doesn’t set well with me.
This is where I point out that you’ve talked about how your financial interests are tied to the corporate-welfare being handed to the corporate-medical-insurance profiteers.
YOU HAVE A FINANCIAL INCENTIVE TO SELL OUT, “TENA”.
Being nasty to those that you are selling out is just salt in wound at this point.
I’m more than a little surprised at how totally Rockefeller and other seemingly stalwart supporters of a “robust public option” have abandoned all pretense of that concept. Acting like an adult is fine and dandy, but at what point is compromising the compromised compromises nothing more than a pyrrhic victory?
If there are no checks to keep the rapacious insurance and pharma industries from robbing us blind, tens of millions still without coverage, no new choice of any kind, and we are legally forced to purchase policies from the same people that have been responsible for this giant fuster cluck, where is the reform?
This has little to do with being adult and much to do with exhibiting at least a little honesty and character. At what point does Rockefeller actually stand for something on a matter of principle? I’m not seeing any reform that is worth all of the b.s. that we have endured to this point.
I’ll be encouraging my state’s senators to vote “no” on this. I say we are better off waiting until people are so angry at the insurance companies that no amount of teabaggery will derail the process. If the Dems can’t govern with a commanding majority, when do they think they will be able to muster up enough courage to actually do something?
We were promised a pony. Ten percent of a pony is not quite the same thing.
@sbj: “If it was fear mongering for the Repubs to say: “If they pass the PO you may lose your employer-provided insurance.” Isn’t it fear mongering for Obama to say: “Pass the bill or you may lose your employer-provided insurance?””
There’s no equivalency there. Republicans’ assertions were not supported by any objective information. Obama’s statement is. [If I'm not mistaken CBO and/or GAO have examined the long-term threat of the healthcare status quo.] Ultimately, what Obama’s stating won’t happen overnight (and I’ve never heard him imply that it will), but the current trend is toward a greater reduction in employer-provided insurance. Additionally, there’s anecdotal evidence to support Obama’s statement. There are many small businesses specifically who say that they are less able to provide healthcare to their employees because of the ever-rising costs.
pass the freakin bill now and attach a public option amendment to ever piece of legislation next year.
@Travis: “Criticism is fine, but it should be responsible. When facts are being selectively chosen (see: mandate attacks versus independent policy analysis of the mandate) to support one’s aim, criticism ceases to be responsible.”
Point taken, but rhetoric and responsibility don’t always need to coincide. While I tend, right now, to side with Rockefeller and Brown and Harkin against Dean, I still think keeping in mind the essential difference in their positions is important. Criticism from the left ought not become shrill and mistaken (See GOP, Teabags), but it might need to get pushy and brave (See Grayson) if it wants to push back against self-interested forces whose only desire is to make more money while people are suffering/dying. The pols and the activists can serve a dual purpose. It’s a potentially powerful dialectic (see GOP and Fox News).
@SBJ…I shall take your point about anybody calling the Repubs fear mongerers when they say the P.O. will take away your private insurance…I NEVER have said that because as I’ve posted many times already…P.O…or not..single payer is on the way because it is the ONLY REAL solution…morality..compassion aside…it will become an economic necessity.
However SBJ unless you’re willing to grant that my speculation is correct…and it is speculation…you have to also admit that repub comments on the P.O. are also SPECULATION!!! Therefore in one sense they represent at least a touch of fear mongering.
However what Obama stated is simply fact…fact with HISTORIC precedence….do you really think it’s being speculative to point out the trends over the last five years and then using Einstein’s famous definition of insanity…believe that we’re going to get a different outcome if we keep doing the SAME thing.
Actually if you respect Einstein’s defintion Obama didn’t go far enough…he could have simply said it’s INSANE to not at least give this bill a chance. It may not work…but we already know with empirical evidence the current system DOES NOT WORK.
I merely suggest SBJ that using speculation is one thing…telling the truth is hardly fear mongering.
AFAIC, there is no such thing as a “pyrrhic victory” here.
Either pass a bill or forget anything else progressive or liberal or sensible or necessary you wanted to see passed anytime in the next who knows how long.
The Democrats held the majority for 40 years. I have laughed and laughed at the Right for losing it after 12.
We’re going to lose it again after 12 months at this rate.
There is so much that needs to be fixed. It just breaks my heart. Judges will retire, SCOTUS justices may, too, environmental legislation is a matter of emergency.
shruggingmyshoulders
NR if you are half as tough as you talk, answer this:
Is the public option is the only thing worthwhile about health care reform?
@BGinCHI…You said..
“Criticism from the left ought not become shrill and mistaken (See GOP, Teabags), but it might need to get pushy and brave (See Grayson) if it wants to push back against self-interested forces whose only desire is to make more money while people are suffering/dying.”
Word Up!!! Great examples too with teabaggers and Grayson.
Perhaps this will put an end to the debate about debate.
@travis: “There’s no equivalency there. Republicans’ assertions were not supported by any objective information. Obama’s statement is. [If I'm not mistaken CBO and/or GAO have examined the long-term threat of the healthcare status quo.] Ultimately, what Obama’s stating won’t happen overnight (and I’ve never heard him imply that it will), but the current trend is toward a greater reduction in employer-provided insurance. Additionally, there’s anecdotal evidence to support Obama’s statement. There are many small businesses specifically who say that they are less able to provide healthcare to their employees because of the ever-rising costs.”
See, the thing is, it’s a bit disingenuous to imply that someone will lose their insurance if we don’t pass Reid’s health care reform bill (or Obamacare for that matter). There’s plenty that can be done to prevent government bankruptcy short of supporting Reid’s bill or Pelosi’s bill. We DO need health care reform – just not these versions. It is fear mongering to imply we will be bankrupt if we don’t pass the **** that is before us right now.
Sen. Rockerfeller,
That means so much coming from a guy who kept silent when he knew the Bush administration was committing war crimes.
Your credibility left town long ago.
Gasman
If this bill passes the way it looks in the Senate, it won’t take long for people to get pissed. Unfortunately, they’ll be pissed at the Dems.
Anyone think all the hell raising from the left might get some movement to make the bill better at all? I’m trying to remember if anyone here liked the Baucus bill when it came out of committee? I know I didn’t and I seem to remember quite a few agreeing with me. Now it’s good enough I guess.
And Ethan, you can rant and rave all you want, we normally agree on most everything, but trying to get the progressives who oppose this to shut up is exactly the wrong thing to do, IMHO. Again, I’m personally not saying “kill the bill” for personal reasons, which again is hypocritical of me, but it is not a bill to capture the hearts of the electorate.
@ruk: “He could have simply said it’s INSANE to not at least give this bill a chance.”
See my comment above: “It is fear mongering to imply we will be bankrupt if we don’t pass the carp that is before us right now. There are other options.
“The idea is simple: Nothing but nothing but nothing can save America from the impending Medicare apocalypse except whatever crappy bill Reid can squeeze out of 60 votes. No new taxes, no social security reform, no spending cuts elsewhere in the budget, and certainly no overhaul of Medicare itself will do the trick. This is it. Give Obama what he wants or else we fall into the ocean.”
via HotAir
The problems with this bill, as it currently exists, is that it more than sells out liberal principles, it also creates worse long-range problem both on POLICY grounds and POLITICAL grounds.
The POLICY of gifting corporate-medical-insurance predators with millions of American customers further solidifies the status-quo.
The POLITICS of this will be disastrous for Dems:
Dems are handing Republican crony-corps billions in corporate-welfare, and even while that will delight Republican leaders, they will, as they always do, use this AGAINST the Dems very effectively.
The CHOICE of a robust public option would circumvent all of these problems.
Without that CHOICE, the mandate of a corporate-buy-in is an unforgivable* obscenity.
*Your political dial may differ, but this is an absolute deal-breaker** for me.
**Again, the best things that those on the left who want more can do is:
Primary right wing Dems, defeat Republicans, and retain Democratic majorities.
“And Ethan, you can rant and rave all you want, we normally agree on most everything, but trying to get the progressives who oppose this to shut up is exactly the wrong thing to do, IMHO. Again, I’m personally not saying “kill the bill” for personal reasons, which again is hypocritical of me, but it is not a bill to capture the hearts of the electorate.”
A) I’m not trying to get them to shut up. I’m trying to get them to make sense or at least explain themselves other than screaming about “corporatists” just because people like me want the bill to pass versus the status quo.
B) What’s the right thing to do? NR has insulted me, insulted Tena, posted boldface rants about corporatists, but provides NO SOLUTION. I ask the Kill the Bill crowd: What should we do? Tell me. What should we do?
@SBJ… “It is fear mongering to imply we will be bankrupt if we don’t pass the **** that is before us right now.”
If by we you mean the entire nation…I agree..but as individuals we literally do face bankruptcy…hopefully you personally haven’t faced that reality yet…but it could happen to you even with your gold plated employer paid policy..should heaven forbid you get the wrong illness.
Again I realize that even though my wife and I would be in the top 10% of wage earners…after a simply kidney stone added $5,000 on top of the $18,000 in annual premiums I had an epiphany…what if it had been cancer…a stroke..or a heart attack. My wife and I have had serious discussions that include getting a divorce and moving assets quickly should one of us become really ill.
Is this the kind of country you’re proud to live in SBJ? Really…I did my turn in Vietnam and have been gainfully employed for over 40 years now…I’m 62 a week from today and so I get to hold my breath…workout 3-4x in the gym…try to eat healthy..don’t smoke…yeah I do have the occasional Martini…but why should I be in such a tenuous position. Why do those IGNORANT FING TEABAGGERS who are simply three years older than me get single payer.
Really SBJ..let me finish with one fundamental question for you.
Where is the fairness…WHY…do people over 65 get single payer PROTECTION from our government…and those who are younger don’t?
And please don’t give me some **** about cost because EVERY expert has said single payer would be more cost effective. Our current costs are nearly DOUBLE what the rest of the world pays.
Lefties need not worry. Even as it stands the bill expands federal power in such vast and unimagined ways, that it’s effectively a takeover. With time, the regulatory framework and bureacracies that will sprout from this will render the health insurance industry into freddie/fannie – like bodies. And like fannie, freddie, social security, medicaid, medicare, the program will be bastardized by the political process and grow into an enormous, unmanageble monster, which, along with those other behemoths collapse the whole house of cards. Hey, it’s all good. That’s ‘progress’.
“Primary right wing Dems”
With who? A liberal in Nebraska? In Arkansas? How’s the crack in your neck of the woods NR?
@BGinCHI: “…but rhetoric and responsibility don’t always need to coincide.”
I disagree, BG. I think that’s precisely a problem with our current political process: The rhetoric and responsibility don’t coincide. That seems to further devalue the political process, shifting it further away from altruistic aims. Furthermore, the efforts of individuals with altruistic aims are complicated by a need to contend with rhetoric that may be quite incendiary, but that is not responsibly tethered to fact, reality… That hampers the political process.
Ethan–obviously reasoning is not working so maybe install a pie filter?
LOLOLOLOL
Democrats in open civil war because they are too incompetent to foist their socialist scheme on the country.
And all we’ve been hearing from you people is how fractious and dysfunctional the GOP is. You are building a great record for the next campaign cycle. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Al Fabrizio…most of the people on this blog approach with some facts…not hot air talking points from Fox or other righties.
You need to do more reading on the subject of health care…crying bullshit like government takeover makes us instantly aware that you are more than likely a simpleton..a teabagger…a Faux News watcher….see anybody can simply spout BS and hurl insults…Medicare is far more popular than private insurance…and more cost effective…and nobody is killing granny..although YOUR current system does KILL 40,000+ a year.
@ruk: “If by we you mean the entire nation…I agree.”
I meant the federal government and I am glad that we agree – fear mongering on either side is inappropriate.
I am all for reform of a system that causes people to go bankrupt or die for lack of money. That does not mean that I have to support these proposals or single payer. I hope you do not imply that single payer is the ONLY viable solution?
“WHY…do people over 65 get single payer PROTECTION from our government”
Because they (typically) have spent a lifetime paying into the system? I believe the average person, by the time they have reached 65, has paid over $1 million in taxes for their Medicare.
“so maybe install a pie filter?”
LOL
Ethan, you’re making too much sense again, love.
@sbj: “See, the thing is, it’s a bit disingenuous to imply that someone will lose their insurance if we don’t pass Reid’s health care reform bill (or Obamacare for that matter). There’s plenty that can be done to prevent government bankruptcy short of supporting Reid’s bill or Pelosi’s bill. We DO need health care reform – just not these versions. It is fear mongering to imply we will be bankrupt if we don’t pass the **** that is before us right now.”
We can agree to disagree. I don’t think it’s “fear mongering” to point out a scary truth. One could actually argue that it’s noble to do so…
And, again, I refer specifically to the small business aspect of this equation. A major aim of the Senate bill is to make insurance costs more affordable for small business owners. So, literally, not passing the bill could very well determine whether or not someone employed at a small business keeps (gets) his/her healthcare.
“And please don’t give me some **** about cost because EVERY expert has said single payer would be more cost effective.”
Rubbish. Are you able to say anything without aburd overstatement? You can enact all the socialist schemes you want, but you can’t repeal the laws of supply and demand or change human nature.
“Again, I’m personally not saying “kill the bill” for personal reasons, which again is hypocritical of me, but it is not a bill to capture the hearts of the electorate.”
I don’t know that reaching an agreement on this is possible. But as long as we’re trying to be reasonable about this disagreement, then it’s all good here and that’s a lot nicer for everyone.
I just think not passing this hands a big victory to the Republicans because they’ve wanted nothing more than to kill this whole thing from the start.
I see your point; in MY thinking, handing the Republicans this victory is well, you know – what should I say? I mean I hope it isn’t fear mongering to worry about that, but since I’m basing it on what the Republicans have always said about this,including anything they could think of to delay and slow it down up to and including a How-To Manual, it just seems too easy for them to take this and run it right back into power.
And I’m not trying to use fear of that as a weapon, it’s the most sincere worry I have.
Q.B….” It is fear mongering to imply we will be bankrupt if we don’t pass the **** that is before us right now.”
I understand why you have to fantasize about the future…because you got your *** kicked up and down in the present…and it’s far too soon to be gloating over HCR…it hasn’t been defeated yet…but keep praying for failure..that’s the GOP way…you guys have failed at virtually everything!
Certainly the economy!!!
You free enterprise at all costs idiots…who view EVERY government program as socialism are simply uneducated boobs.
The repubs and their wonderful free enterprise gave us …first the Great Depression…and now the Great Recession…you are losers by definition.
As far as the future and how the Dems are going to get voters…
are you smoking crack?
Where are your votes coming from? Who will replace all those old while southerners? Let’s see you’re going to start making inroads into the AA community…this Hispanice community…they already hate you and after the upcoming immigration debate with folks like Lou Dobbs and Sister Sarah leading the way you’ll get the Latino vote..yeah when monkeys fly out of my butt!
So spew on with your hate and vitriol QB because here are some facts you can put in that crack pipe and smoke..
Who holds the White House…The Dems
Who holds the Senate….The Dems
Who holds the House…The Dems
And so Q.B. again by defintion…you are a loser!!!! LMAO
O – I mean to tell you not to beat yourself up for a slight inconsistency, Imsinca = it doesn’t matter that you have other reasons for things.
“I think what people who oppose that will tell you is that you can’t have the kind of comprehensive legislation that the Senate is trying to deal with now, and that may in fact be true.”
Anyone wanna guess who said that?
The quotation was referring to reconciliation (…people who oppose [reconciliation] will tell you…)
Sorry for an incorrect cut and paste..the comment that made me laugh at Q.B. should have been “You are building a great record for the next campaign cycle. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH”
Like the future for the rump party Whig/Gop is ever going to be bright again…LMAO
Ethan, if I had the answers to your questions I’d probably be sharing them with everyone already. Everyone rides the progressive back in supporting their ideas but then dumps on them when it’s time to compromise. I agree we should compromise as this point, but I am hoping that if enough people raise holy hell, maybe we can eke out something better.
Everyone ignored the polls for the last several months that the only thing that polled consistently favorable was the public option. And I know better than to enter the fray regarding you and NR, thanks but no thanks.
Look, “Ethan”, I get it, your an advocate for the corporate-Dems.
I’m not.
I can respect where Corp-Dems reflect their constituencies but too often they don’t, the only “constituency” many of those corporate-Dems reflect are BIG MONEY.
Pushing a Republican with a (D) behind their name is NOT progress. That was the tactic that corporatist Rahm Emmanuel used to undermine Howard Dean’s progressive 50 state strategy.
Again, the best things that those on the left who want more can do is:
Primary right wing Dems, defeat Republicans, and retain Democratic majorities.
http://www.actblue.com
BERNIE SANDERS said that.
You CANNOT pass comprehensive health care reform through reconciliation. JUST budget-related stuff.
NO health insurance industry regulatory reform. NONE.
And not to mention that reconciliation is ALWAYS an option. Unless Ifo is right and Conrad won’t do it. At which point we never COULD do it.
“simply uneducated boobs”
LOL In your dreams you uneducated half wit. I didn’t even say what you quoted, maroon. That was sbj.
Your vaunted party of the future is self-destructing. Because your socialist schemes to destroy our freedom are unpopular. Your Messiah President is becoming a laughingstock in his first year.
And we can all see from your disjointed and maniacal ranting who is on crack. You are a resentful and hateful crank. We, America, don’t want your socialist shackles.
@SBJ “Because they (typically) have spent a lifetime paying into the system?” Are you conflating Medicare with Social Security? Social Security recipients like to talk about how much they’ve paid in but with all the COLA’s the vast majority have not paid in what they’ll take out…that is to say if they had invested in private annuities…still SS does at least try to calculate benefit in some relation to what you’ve paid in.
Medicare however does not!!! These nasty teabaggers have NOT paid “millions” into the system…it is funded by a separate part of F.I.C.A. which doesn’t come close to covering health care.
Listen I do not want my poor 84 year old mother tossed to the health care wolves so I’m not saying all of this out of jealousy. Envy perhaps but not jealousy. I’m for a compassionte country and a caring society.
All, happy hour roundup posted:
http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/economy/happy-hour-roundup-129/
NR, you ignore my substantive comments. You ignore my attempts to understand you and you understand me. You ignore that I am for single-payer but I just want this bill to pass. You ignore my request that you not put my name in quotes. So f*ck off prick. Done with you forever.
Everyone else, I’m out, have a good night.
Q.B. My last waste of strokes on you…
“Your vaunted party of the future is self-destructing. Because your socialist schemes to destroy our freedom are unpopular. Your Messiah President is becoming a laughingstock in his first year.”
Reread the **** you just posted. Do you EVER post anything factual? Messiah WTF does that mean? Socialist schemes destroying our freedom? Do you comprehend the English language?
Do you know what hyperbole means?
You see Q.B…I toss off a few facts…such as..
3 repub presidents….Harding…Coolidge.and Hoover preceded the Great Depression….8 years of Bush rule preceded the Great Recession…those are FACTS not simply hyperbolic name calling?
I asked you a legitimate question…how do you suppose the repubs are going to regain power…where are your voters going to come from…look at your 50,000 9/12ers…oops I’m sorry beck claims 2 million…they are almost all old white people.
And so if you have the cojones…balls for xenophobes like you QB answer the simple questions with some facts…do you suppose the repubs are going to pick up votes in our fastest growing demographic Hispanices…yeahhhh right LMAO..how about African Americans?…yeah right…you have no power in the populated Northeast…Q.B it’s time for you to move to some fascist state where you might find comfort…how about Iran…see it’s easy to use hyperbole.
@”quarterback”: “Democrats in open civil war because they are too incompetent to foist their socialist scheme on the country.”
heh, before you go to get your popcorn, “quarterback”…
While I wouldn’t expect any intellectual honesty from you, “quarterback”, you should note two things:
“The left” are NOT uniformly “following the leader” (as right wingers typically do).
AND
Again Obama is far, far, far to the right of most of his base.
http://www.actblue.com
@Travis: “I disagree, BG. I think that’s precisely a problem with our current political process: The rhetoric and responsibility don’t coincide. That seems to further devalue the political process, shifting it further away from altruistic aims. Furthermore, the efforts of individuals with altruistic aims are complicated by a need to contend with rhetoric that may be quite incendiary, but that is not responsibly tethered to fact, reality… That hampers the political process.”
I hear you, and I wish I could agree, but for the Dems to be able to be a flexible, big-tent party, they are going to need to make the best use of all the good ideas they can. This doesn’t mean we give in to the Liebermans and Nelsons; it means we try to change the discourse by hammering away with the best arguments we have. I agree these need to be honest, but not naive. You are never going to be in a Frank Capra movie where if you are just decent enough and honest enough and hard-working enough you will eventually get everyone to understand that cooperating makes society (often) work better. What the rhetoric does is allow honest and true policy advancements to get out into the discourse more effectively. It’s not a deal with the devil; it’s more like a deal with Dickens or Zola.
@ruk: “Are you conflating Medicare with Social Security?”
No.
“SS does at least try to calculate benefit in some relation to what you’ve paid in.”
But Medicare does not – I understand that. And yet each one of us, on average, by the time we reach 6,5 will have paid over a million dollars in taxes that are supposed to fund Medicare.
You asked why younger people shouldn’t be included in Medicare – I postulated that perhaps one reason would be that they have not yet paid all that much in taxes to support it.
“Do you know what hyperbole means?”
“those are FACTS not simply hyperbolic name calling?”
I refer you to your long and current history of hyperbolic name calling.
I don’t know exactly how all racial and ethnic groups will vote in future elections. What I do know is that the Democ-rat party polarizes and divides and plays racial spoils games, and has had great success at times with these demogogic and cynical and corrupt practices. You pander to Hispanics with open borders immigration policies — which are effectively treasonous. You shamelessly race bait and protect voter fraud rackets and buy votes by promoting resentment and paying with tax dollars.
Yes, your corrupt party is very adept at all these nefarious practices. But I also see, and so do all of you, your corrupt party at each other’s throats because they are feckless and cynical and are pushing wildly unpopular schemes to shackle Americans and spend even trillions more that we don’t have to spend. I see that, as you yourself admit, your far-left president and far-left Congress had to run deceptive campaigns disguising their hard leftist objectives in order to get elected, after which they claimed a false mandate.
I see your corrupt party self-immolating, and never was failure and political disaster so richly deserved and so welcome to Americans who still care about the heritage of this country. That doesn’t include you, obviously.
“I see your corrupt party self-immolating, and never was failure and political disaster so richly deserved and so welcome to Americans who still care about the heritage of this country. That doesn’t include you, obviously.”
And see one more plain vanilla bully from the right sounding off, beating his chest and pretending he doesn’t have wedding tackle the size of a weasel’s in his pants.
left the damn subject out of that first sentence.
I see one more plain vanilla rightwing bully sounding off and trying to pretend he doesn’t have a weasel’s wedding tackle.
there, fixed it.
Right wing extremist “quarterback’s” dishonest rhetorical flairs in a nutshell: “the Democ-rat party polarizes”.
With just a handful of words the right winger manages to insult his opponents and by extension POLARIZE the discussion while simultaneously accusing his opponent of doing exactly what he is doing.
Right wing rhetoric like that is a classic combination of dishonesty, hypocrisy, and insults.
(But while Republicans are masters of that kind of manipulative rhetoric, that kind of Republican Newt Gingrich’ian language and right wing framing is also unfortunately employed by centrists like Nate Silver to attack the left.)
quarterback the teabagger,
You are an infantile clown. You recklessly hurl adjectives and nouns without any regard to their actual meaning. For reference, see any of your previous usages of Marxist, Maoist, Stalinist, socialist, communist, and Hitlerite. Your need to employ brainless hyperbole is seemingly pathological. It is apparently what you do.
You also contend that we have a “far-left president and far-left Congress.” Where is the evidence of this leftism? Again, where is Obama’s support for ANYTHING that is actually far left of center? You can’t cite anything because he has been very middle of the road. So much so that he has spent time actually worrying about Blue Dog Dems, Liebermann, and Snowe. Not exactly leftist behavior.
You are a bigoted teabagger who has advocated torture, endorsed Orly Taitz and the birthers, consumes a daily dose of the fetid swill ladled out by FauxNews, shown yourself to be an acolyte of Sarah Palin, and gleefully endorsed every harebrained bit of teabagger nonsense that has emerged from the depths of their imbecility.
You are a buffoon. You are a teabagger.
The point that many are making (that this is our only opportunity) misses the mark: WE DON’T NEED to pass a substandard bill. The Senate can use reconciliation to implement a public option or medicare buy-in that is far more effective than the watered down versions under discussion only a week ago. Regulation of the insurance industry can then be done by legislation.
LOL Three of the biggest lefty hypocrites and air-headed hacks prove it again with their deranged and vulgar and ad hominem attacks on me.
Always remember, Gasbag, how I proved in black white that you are a pernicious liar. Same with you, Tena, and your peddling of false quotations. You have zero credibility.
Howard Dean is right!!! Kill this monstrosity before it’s too late!!! There is no “reform”, there is nothning but a big bundle of money for the Death Panel Industry. What do you think will happen when the 30 million people who can’t afford “you’re covered until you make a claim” insurance still can’t afford to pay through the nose? How many jails do you think you’ll have to build?
It’s like O’Same decided that the problem wasn’t that 40-50 million Americans can’t afford Health insurance, but that those greedy scum aren’t contributing their fair share to the Death Panel Executives 140 million dollar bonuses.
quarterback the teabagger,
The only thing that you have ever proven QB is that you are an imbecilic teabagger.
Shakespeare certainly must have had you in mind when he wrote, “A tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.”
That’s you, QB, all sound and fury and not a bit of sense.
Haha, thanks for pulling out that old over-used chestnut, Gasbag. Like we needed more confirmation of your utter lack of original thought. I’m sure the Bard would be just delighted to see his words quoted by a half-witted misanthrope like you.
Although you don’t want to remember, others will remember how you lied about Fox News, and I proved right here that you were lying. You are too funny. LOL
QB the teabagger,
You are the one who constantly lies about your mendacious overlords at FauxNews. They used intentionally bogus footage three times since your imaginary “victory” over me. FauxNews are admitted inveterate liars who doctor their transcripts, their footage, and their on air content. That you are incapable of recognizing their mendacity is merely evidence of your fatuousness and your sycophancy to these liars.
You declare yourself victor of these little p*ssing contests on a blog and then crow about “vanquishing” your foes. You are a pathetic, delusional teabagger troll.
The word “teabagger” sums up the content of both your character and your intellect.
teabagger = moron
Hahaha, no Gasbag, I am just resolved to reminding you and your fellow travelers here what a brazen liar YOU in particular are and how you clung to your ridiculous lies — quoting your Bible MMA and Ubermorn as your “proof” — untl I proved they were lies.
Why you? Because you, the claimed devout Christian, are singularly deranged, dishonest, and malicious to your core. Because you know nothing but rote repetition of your official leftist hatespeak talking points. Because you are such an intellectual and moral fraud par excellence, and you above all are committed to forever repeating your lies even after they are proved lies.
And you prove it yet again by repeating the same lies I already disproved. And each time you do this you sink further into your reprobate condition.
I agree with a lot of what you
“Why you? Because you, the claimed devout Christian, are singularly deranged, dishonest, and malicious to your core.”
That’s a bit below the belt !