Obtained: In Letter To Pelosi, 41 House Dems Pledge To Vote Against Bill With Anti-Abortion Amendment
In a move that will intensify the coming war over how to treat abortion in the health care bill, more than three dozen House Dems have signed a letter to Nancy Pelosi firmly pledging to vote against the bill if it contains an anti-abortion amendment.
A source sends over a working copy of the letter without the signatories, and the source says it currently bears the signatures of 41 House Dems. They’re all vowing to vote No on a bill if it contains the Stupak amendment — enough to sink the bill:
As Members of Congress we believe that women should have access to a full range of reproductive health care. Health care reform must not be misused as an opportunity to restrict women’s access to reproductive health services.
The Stupak-Pitts amendment to H.R. 3962, The Affordable Healthcare for America Act, represents an unprecedented and unacceptable restriction on women’s ability to access the full range of reproductive health services to which they are lawfully entitled. We will not vote for a conference report that contains language that restricts women’s right to choose any further than current law.
That’s unequivocal, with no wiggle room. The Washington Post reported this morning that Rep. Diana DeGette had collected 40 signatures vowing a No vote, without noting the language of their vow or how this would be communicated.
Now we know — at least 41 House Dems are writing directly to Pelosi, telling her that they will not vote for anything “that contains language that restricts women’s right to choose any further than current law.”
I’m told that the letter is still being circulated for even more signatures, and I’ll bring you a list of signatories when I have it.
The Stupak amendment, of course, would sharply curtail the availability of abortions, which many insurance plans now offer, and was added in order to win the support of moderate Dems. That pro-choice Democrats are now drawing such a sharp line against the amendment will make the politics considerably more difficult going forward.
******************************
Update: Dem Rep. Debbie Wasserman-Schultz throws down the gauntlet, vows that Stupak will not be in final bill.
Update II: I haven’t provided a list of signatories because they are still being gathered. Will update you when I know more.
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If I recall, the progressive caucus had earlier stated unequivocally that any bill without a PO tied to Medicare would be unacceptable. They caved. I DO think, however, that this restriction is fairly onerous and will have to be rejiggered somehow before the House will approve.
Now of course someone needs to figure out how many wouldn’t vote for a bill without the Stupak amendment. Pelosi will have to make whichever group is smaller suck an egg.
guh… stupid tags only “without” was supposed to be in italics
@holy: “If the pro-life language is stripped from the bill during negotiations with the Senate, if Pelosi loses the support of any three of these people below [42 Dem members of House] as a result — without picking up anybody else’s support — the bill cannot pass the House.”
http://spectator.org/blog/2009/11/08/members-to-watch
From Greg’s post Sunday:
“Here’s a group to watch: I’ve compiled the list of 35 House Dems who voted for the Stupak anti-abortion amendment and then in favor of the final bill. They’re key because if the final measure comes back from conference without the Stupak amendment, the final vote could be a tough one for them.”
35-41, looks like the anti Stupak Sepsis Ammendment will win the showdown if there is one. What do you think Greg?
lmisnca, I imagine there will be some kind of compromise that allows each side to look as if they dug in and won a concession…but I really don’t know.
From the NYTimes.com yesterday. They’ve definitely got their work cut out for them.
“But for all the exultation, there was a sense inside the White House and on Capitol Hill that the hardest work is yet to come. The House debate highlighted the pressures that will come to bear on senators as they weigh contentious issues like federal financing for abortion, coverage for illegal immigrants and the “public option,” a government-backed insurance plan to compete with the private sector.”
@lmsinca: They’ve also got to work on the size of the subsidies and the means to finance them. Pelosi does not have much room to work – she can’t afford to lose three votes from either side of the abortion question.
Reality sets in.
Pro-Choice Progressives Are Asleep At The Switch.
All those who voted for the Stupak amendment, voted for Abortions being acceptable under certain conditions, such as if the baby was conceived through Incest or Rape.
Wake up Progressives. They have just handed you the stick you can use to beat them. Better to use that stick on them, than for back alley abortions.
They have just agreed that abortions are acceptable, and not murder. They just want to control the decision making process, and take it away from pregnant women, and their doctors.
For Cripes Sake, Don’t you get it!. They just agreed that abortions are not a problem, if they do not like how the baby was conceived.
There goes their entire argument about it being the taking of an innocent life. Use it against them. Wake up Progressives.
the other thing to consider here is that the liberals on the PO could say they secured something that had been written off for dead. it was easier for them to cave on the robust public option than it will be here for thes guys
IMO every congressperson who voted for the Stupak Sepsis Ammendment immediately needs to give back all campaign donations taken from any insurance company that offers abortions to their customers. That way they will set their conscience free. What a bunch of hypocrits.
I’m so frakking tired of this damn fight over my reproductive organs. I’m so damned tired of the Ratwing constantly trying to force its ‘morality’ and view on everyone else.
[heavyfrakkingsigh]
Agreed Greg, this is a can of worms for progressives, much more than the robust vs. less robust PO. I’ll be watching to see how they compromise this one out.
Didn’t Pelosi & Co see this anti-abortion dem gang bubbling up ? How did they get under the radar for so long ?
“For Cripes Sake, Don’t you get it!. They just agreed that abortions are not a problem, if they do not like how the baby was conceived.”
I know that – that’s all it’s ever been about.
amk
I don’t know the history of the ammendment but I remember reading somewhere that Stupak began as early as July 1 of this year with a letter regarding the abortion funding language. Will have to research that.
I also heard that supposedly Obama promised Waxman he would personally work on this, I assume that means getting it out of conference somehow, maybe just a rumor?
Here are a few thoughts from Jon Walker who is one of the guys I like at FDL.
“Abortion would be the only legal medical procedure which the bill would ban insurance companies from covering. Abortion will be the only legal medical procedure the bill will offically “ration.” By voting for the amendment 64 Democrats and all but one Republican voted to put a government bureaucrat between you, your insurance provider, and your doctor. If you choose to have an abortion, your doctor is willing to prefer the procedure, and your insurance provider is willing to pay for the procedure, this amendment will have a government bureaucrat prevent that from happening. For all the talk about small government, these representatives are more than happy to give the government more power as long as it is used to restrict a woman’s right to choose.”
“For all the talk about small government, these representatives are more than happy to give the government more power as long as it is used to restrict a woman’s right to choose.””
Well yeah. Just like the same hypocrites gave Bush bushels of money to piss away in Iraq. So don’t tell me it’s about the deficit -= they are respponsible for it.
Do you know what happens if you try to keep flying a plane with just a Right Wing?
You keep going around in circles, until you stall out and crash.
http://blogs.tampabay.com/buzz/2009/11/club-for-growth-endorses-marco-rubio.html
“November 09, 2009
Club for Growth endorses Marco Rubio
It would have been bigger news if the Club for Growth didn’t endorse Marco Rubio for U.S. Senate, but the endorsement announced today is still a big deal for Rubio. The PAC could funnel millions of dollars toward the Miami Republican’s campaign. The group concluded that A) Rubio can beat Charlie Crist in the primary and B) that he can beat Kendrick Meek in the general. Here’s the full statement:”
Key thing to remember, imho, is all this stuff about it being hard work, or work… This “hard work” is GOVERNING. There are NO easy answers, simple choices. The choices need to be made. That is governing. This is why the Dems are good at governing and the Neo-confederates are NOT. WE address substantive issues and the side with the larger number of votes wins. THEY attack and purge any member they cannot twist into voting with the neocon block. That is why the Dems are expert at governing and the neocons are only expert at strong-arm tactics.
The compromise will probably be something like requiring women who may be considering an abortion to view a gamut of anti-abortion propaganda before actually having the procedure toward making them feel like the evil, why-to-you-hate-babies-and-America, promiscuous un-barefooted-in-the-kitchen loosie-goosies that the anti-abortion crowd just knows that they are.
It’s amazing and sad that we’re even talking about allowing these Neanderthals to dictate who and who does not get support for a legal procedure, protected by law.
You’re right Ethan, but we’ll fight first for what we want, and hope the compromise or whatever gives something back to women.
“but we’ll fight first for what we want”
We did that to get it in the first place. We wanted it, we fought for it, we got it and by god they are not taking it away again.
Enough of these old, white, right-wing gasbag males dictating terms on reproductive rights. As far as I’m concerned, if you don’t have a uterus, and have never had a period, conceived a child or given birth, you should not be permitted to create ANY law dictating the reproductive rights of those who have/do — PERIOD (sorry, no pun intended).
“Thank you, Pelosi!”
http://anti-abortion.info/images/aborted_7_month_fetus.jpg
Those who want to outlaw abortions, are also the same groups that want to outlaw contraception and *** awareness education.
If they want to avoid the unwanted pregnancies which lead to many abortions, they should be supporting the use of contraception, and outlawing alcohol.(snark alert, for satire proof right wing fundies)
edit;
s*ex awareness…….
This is from a Politico piece.
“Democrats have long maintained that the Republican Party is hostile to all but the most conservative women, and they cited last week’s rough-and-tumble House health care debate as proof that things are getting worse.
On Saturday, Rep. Tom Price (R-Ga.) repeatedly cited parliamentary rules in an attempt to shout down Rep. Lois Capps (D-Calif.), who was trying to deliver a speech defending abortion rights.
A day earlier, Rep. Pete Sessions (R-Texas) suggested that women who complained that their gender was designated a “pre-existing condition” by some insurers were on a par with smokers because both groups incur higher treatment costs.
“Why should a smoker pay more?” asked Sessions, who runs the National Republican Congressional Committee — which is tasked with recruiting new female candidates.”
lmsinca:
“You’re right Ethan, but we’ll fight first for what we want,”
What lmsinca wants:
http://www.legaljackass.co.uk/aborted%20fetus%20thumb.jpg
The Supreme Court ruled that Abortion is legal, and they did so long before Speaker Pelosi came to her office. Right Wingers are such inbred morons. If the exception about abortion been paid for, in cases of incest, ever catches on; The Republicans will end up eradicating most of their future Southern base.
Bilgeman
I count you among those “old, white, right-wing gasbag males” that Benton mentioned earlier. I will no longer read any of your posts or respond to them. I’m sure you could care less but I had to just say it. I hope you don’t have a wife or daughters.
The Anti Choice Movement needs to face reality.
Women CAN NOT IMPREGNATE THEMSELVES! The only way to end the need for abortion is to prevent the cause, unintentional impregnation of women.
If the Anti-choice zealots believe they can actually enact legislation that would actually end abortion then they MUST mandate vasectomies for all men, with exemptions & reversals granted only by written permission of the woman intended to be impregnated.
All abortion laws are nothing less than gender discrimination and violations of privacy and the civil right of self determination. They clearly discriminate & violate a woman’s civil liberty to control her own body.
If a law mandating men to undergo vasectomies to prevent unintentional impregnation, would be a clear violation of their civil liberties, why is the forcing a woman to carry a pregnancy to term, which is created by the unintentional deposit of a man’s sperm, any less of a violation of her civil liberty?
Benton, you are right. I’ve always hated the idea that old, male gasbags want to make this most personal of decisions for women. But today, after struggling with my private insurance company for months over a denial of benefits for procedures performed in the early summer–procedures that are covered without question by Medicare–I’ve finally learned my insurance will pay the claim. When you’re going through serious medical stuff and have the added burden and indignity of needing to spend hours of frustrating time trying to see that a legitimate claim is paid, it makes health care reform very personal. Yes, the language on abortion needs to change. But this very important bill needs to become law. It will be the start of making medical coverage help patients more than it helps insurance companies, and that’s really huge.
If you believe that “pledge” I have a bridge in Brooklyn. Their pledges are meaningless.
A change of pace from the Blue Texan.
“The latest update from the ‘Cuda begins:
Twenty years ago, the ultimate symbol of the division between freedom and tyranny was torn down. The Berlin Wall was constructed for one purpose: to prevent the escape of East Germans to the freedom of the West. The Wall’s cold, gray façade was a stark reminder of the economic and political way of life across the Soviet Union’s sphere of influence in Eastern Europe.
I’m sorry, but 1,000 Sarah Palin clones chained to 1,000 typewriters would not produce a sentence like that in 100,000 years. Let alone include the cedilla in “facade.” Let alone use the word “facade.”
Need proof? Here’s the ‘Cuda speaking at an anti-choice event last Friday (h/t TS).
In order to save government money, government health care has to be rationed… [so] than this elderly person that perhaps could be seen as costing taxpayers to pay for a non-productive life? Do you think our elderly will be first in line for limited health care?
I rest my case”
lmsinca:
“I count you among those “old, white, right-wing gasbag males” that Benton mentioned earlier. I will no longer read any of your posts or respond to them. I’m sure you could care less but I had to just say it.”
What? Not happy having what you want laid out on a slab and photographed?
It’s not even human,according to you moonbats, right?
So what’s your problem with it?
With a few photographs, your whole “reproductive rights” nonsense is shown for the bunk that it is.
Abortion is a hideous tragedy, even where it is medically necessary or because the pregnancy was a result of violence.
It isn’t something like getting your hair permed…and it should NEVER be so.
Ole Bill Clinton had the right of it…it should be safe, legal, and RARE.
Clearly one of those coathanger back alley abortions Stupak consigned poor women to. Nice way to prove the anti-Stupak point, Bilgeman.
ABC
You’re absolutely right. I have a 30 year old daughter with asthma, really bad asthma, who has not had insurance since Aug. 31 and I lost my niece through recission. No one wants this more than I do, but we have to still try to get this cr@p ammendment compromised out.
Wasserman Schultz throws down the gauntlet:
http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/health-care/wasserman-schultz-we-will-kill-stupak-amendment/
Ummmm…bilgeman. Find one person that thinks getting an abortion is like getting your hair permed.
Maybe in your pathetic world it might be the same thing.
But then again, you still wish the South won so you could have a slave so I guess I’m not surprised coming from you.
One more quick comment Bilgey Boy, only in your mind is pro choice, pro abortion. Now please quit raging your pure ideology that includes war and torture, or would you like to see some battleground photos?
My Question Of The Day Is:
Does the bill cover vasectomies?
Probably,
Along with penile implants & Viagra.
Blige, why do you have total disrespect for human life?
And women?
Thanks for the inspiration, liam. I sent this email to my Red Dog.
Dear Congressman Matheson:
Can you please explain your thought process behind your vote in favor of abortion?
The Stupak amendment, which you voted for, allows for the public funding of abortion in those cases where the fetus, a spirit baby, was conceived through Incest or rape. You seem to think that SOME abortions are a violation of the sanctity of human life, murder if you will, while others are not. Is this the way Heavenly Father views innocent life?
Regardless of the Supreme Court’s decision in Roe v. Wade, is not the Congress a co-equal branch of government that can decide how to spend government funds? Why are you supporting the murder of an innocent fetus? Is it simply that you prefer to take away such decisions from the mothers and their doctors? I fail to understand how any innocent fetus is responsible for how it was conceived and how you can attempt to twist your logic to support any abortion.
Furthermore, do you support criminal charges for any doctor or mother who participates in an abortion? If not, why not? I smell hypocrisy. If abortion is murder, start acting like it is.
Sincerely yours,
“That pro-choice Democrats are now drawing such a sharp line against the amendment will make the politics considerably more difficult going forward.”
Interesting that the pro-choice Dems are being fingered as “obstructionists” here. One could just as easily say:
“That pro-life Democrats have drawn such a sharp line in favor of the amendment will make the politics considerably more difficult going forward.”
@Drew,
Well done, and well said.
Hey Drew,
By your standard, masturbation is nothing less than the murder of potential “Spirit Babies”.
Every time you have *** are you intending to make a “Spirit Baby”?
If not, why? I smell hypocrisy.
We could use his likes today.
He was a devout Catholic, but he knew how to keep his religious faith separate from his Constitutional duties.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._Brennan,_Jr.
@KTP
That is all right. I want people on both sides of the abortion issue to call out their reps for their hypocrasy. I can understand someone believing that abortion is murder. I do not share that belief. What I can not tolerate is those sanctimonious hypocrites who claim that abortion is murder, and then turn around and outlaw it, except in cases where they do not like how the conception occurred. They then say go ahead and abort, and we will pay for it.
Of course the Supreme Court has ruled that abortion is not murder, and that women have a right to seek one. I agree with the Supreme Court ruling.
Those sanctimonious hypocrites who voted for the Tupak amendment, were saying that we want to outlaw abortion, and also let it still be used, when we do not like how the pregnancy occurred.
I don’t understand? You can’t get a abortion under the Public Option, but it doesn’t stop you from getting a abortion with your own money. The law on abortion has not been overturned. You can’t get abortion on medicaid either, but most women get the money some how if they want one—-So, what is the big deal? Please explain that to me!
Medicaid is Government funded.
The Public Option is not. It is designed to be a self sustaining coverage plan, that uses no federal funds. It is privately funded by membership premiums. Therefore it is none of the government’s business which legal medical procedures a woman obtains under the plan.
I have a naive question:
Once a bill exits conference committee and goes back to each house within Congress can either party filibuster it? If no, does passage require a simple majority?
I’m going to thoroughly enjoy watching Nancy Pelosi try to figure out how to slink away unnoticed from the train wreck she’s created. Abortion, illegal immigrants, criminal penalties, sky-high taxation: damn, I’ll tip my hat to Pelosi–only a super genius like her could produce a bill in which there’s something everybody can roundly hate regardless of party affiliation, religion, ethnicity, creed, or color.
The issue is a woman’s right to choose. Why does a handful of men have the privilege of deciding if a woman is wise enough to make the decision to have (or not) an abortion? I doubt if any woman really WANTS an abortion.
Give us a break!!!! Respect the Law!!!!
Jason, filibuster is an extra-constitutional practice maintained in the Senate’s parliamentary rules. Ending a filibuster requires 60 votes for the end of debate (AKA “cloture”).
The House of Representatives conducts itself differently and gives the majority party far, far more power over the terms by which any particular bill is debated in its general sessions. There is no filibuster in the House and passage there is by majority vote. It is far easier for the majority party to pass any given bill through the House as long as the House’s majority party leadership supports the bill.
sky-high taxation
With a comment like that I know that you have little knowledge of American history.
oddjob, thank you. However, I was wondering about filibuster once the Senate and House bills have been merged, which I know can’t happen until the Senate passes a bill. Once they mesh the two together can it then be filibustered in the Senate or will it go straight to an up or down vote?
I don’t understand how the Stupak Amendment restricts abortion coverage. Anybody who already has abortion coverage can keep it. Anybody who doesn’t already have abortion coverage isn’t losing anything (by definition!). I don’t see what the pro-abortion Congressfolks are complaining about.
Either you are obtuse or just down right dim-witted.
The reason for a reform bill is to provide legal medical coverage to those who do not have it now, and to prevent the refusal of coverage on legal medical procedures, for any reason.
“A.S.”, nobody is “pro-abortion”.
There are people who don’t believe that government should intrude on personal medical decisions.
Many right wingers (including some Democratic politicians) unfortunately believe that government should interfere with individuals personal medical choices.
The entire point of health care reform is to provide more people with more choices.
The Stupak Amendment restricts choices.
The Stupak Amendment is Anti-Woman.
It’s bad enough when men are anti-women, but it’s a double shame that some women feel the need to work against the personal medical choices of other women.
can it then be filibustered in the Senate or will it go straight to an up or down vote?
Off the top of my head I can’t remember. Good question.
If abortion is murder, then state-funded abortion is genocide. However, there are exceptions to the rule, mainly if the woman’s health is at risk. In the case of rape or incest, her mental health might well be at risk if she brought the fetus to term.
All that has to be considered, and will be considered by the Senate, I have no doubt.
US History Encyclopedia:
“Cloture is a procedure used by the United States Senate to end a filibuster or prolonged debate and reach a final vote on the pending motion, bill, amendment, or conference report.”
Jean Markovitz:
“The issue is a woman’s right to choose. Why does a handful of men have the privilege of deciding if a woman is wise enough to make the decision to have (or not) an abortion”
No. The issue is money. There are people who want to compel others to pay for their birth control procedures.
Abortion is still perfectly legal, and you are perfectly free to go purchase one.
Are you intentionally muddying the waters?
lmsinca:
“And women?”
I may have direspect for you, and you may be a woman, but that does not automatically mean that I have disrespect for women.
This isn’t a schoolgirl b!tch-fest where you decide you hate some other girl and then you both run off and start coalition-building among your friends and allies in order to trash each other.
You REALLY should have grown out of that by now.
Mr/Mrs. Garrison: Hello doctor, looks like I need an abortion. [sits on the chair and puts his feet on the stirrups]
Doctor: …an abortion?
Mr./Mrs. Garrison: Yeah, I’ve got one growing inside me. Now, are you gonna scramble its brains or just vacuum it out?…If you want you can just scramble it and I’ll queef it out myself.
http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2009/06/mr_garrisons_ab.html
All that has to be considered, and will be considered by the Senate, I have no doubt.
It’s been considered to death endless times already.
Bilgewater is the right wing extremist who just the other day was claiming that all women are responsible for their pregnancies without any exceptions for rape or incest.
And as for the right wing logic of Peter Ramsey, if murder is murder, then Governor of Texas Republican Bush committed mass murder for executing over 150 people. (Not to mention the War Bush lied US into that killed thousands of Americans and 10’s of thousands of Iraqis.)
And, of course, we all await the moment the right wing stop choosing corporate-profits over the over 44,000 American lives lost each year because of lack of health care.
Abortion is the taking of innocent life, that fact will never change no matter how anyone tries to spin it. Don’t expect the pro-life community to support murder in the womb with their hard earned tax dollars …ever! My Congressman understand that there is a line in the sand, and he knows in my district of Ohio, he will never get reelected if he votes for a bill that does not include pitts-stupak.
Ezekiel 9: 4-6
“And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem….let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women….”
I Samuel 15:2-3
“Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys…”
…..for the Bible tells me so…..
The pro-life community needs to get its act together and support legislation that supports babies ( and other human beings) once they leave the womb.
Until then they lose a huge amount of credibility, and appear to be no more than an anti-woman’s movement.
I’m looking forward to all these right wingers who feel that government should force women to have babies to step up to their parental responsibilities.
“Bill”, how many children have you adopted?
“Peter Ramsey”, do you support higher taxes to support those children’s healthcare, nutrition, and schooling?
Seriously, where are the right wingers stepping up to their responsibilities?
Right wingers that would force a woman to have a children and then abandon that woman’s child are Dead Beats.
If right wingers “Bill” and “Peter Ramsey” aren’t around after the baby is born they are dead beat daddies.
It’s the Republican Dead Beat Daddy Party.
At least the left wingers are there for the child, ready to help out with nutritious food, healthcare, and a decent education.
The answer is two children, how about you? And by the way, how many hours have you volunteered to crisis pregnancy centers? These are the people that take care of mothers and children AFTER they leave the womb as well as before. I don’t ever remember meeting a left-winger at a CPC. I’m surprised with you guys and gals, your stereotypes are obsolete and degrading. Can’t you win a debate on the facts rather than resorting to slander and worn-out cliche stereotypes anymore? You really need to become more tolerant of opposing viewpoints. Remember …the humanist manifesto?
All right Joe, you’re reading your Bible. I commend you for that, however that passage doesn’t apply to this issue.
God’s judgment on unbelievers isn’t the same as killing the unborn in the womb …nice try. How about this one, since you like to recite Scripture. Psalm 139:13-16 “you knit me together in my mother’s womb …You saw me BEFORE I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed.”
God looks on the unborn as real people even before they leave the womb. I look forward to your response.
NewsRef:
“Bilgewater is the right wing extremist who just the other day was claiming that all women are responsible for their pregnancies without any exceptions for rape or incest.”
Very funny, Mr. Sulzberger, but save the **** you make up for the pages of your newspaper, okay?
God may look on the unborn as real people, but the founders created a separation of church and state for a reason.
Not everyone has the same belief system as you do.
Bilge, why do you hold no regard for human dignity?
“Bill” condemns all those who disagree with him with a broad brush and then demands that everyone be tolerant of his anti-woman bigotry.
If you’ve actually adopted two children (instead of just naming your own children) I congratulate you. That’s more than the vast majority of right-wingers have done.
But what about those poor women who can barely support themselves, let alone the children that you would force on them?
Again, are you ready to raise taxes so that those air-breathing children outside of the womb (that you intend to force strangers to bear) are guaranteed good nutrition, healthcare, and education?
And again, for the record: Jesus never said anything about abortion.
Any true Christian would be working for Universal Health Care, for as Jesus clearly stated, the only way to Heaven is to provide for the least amongst US.
Jesus Christ specifically said that the path to Heaven was reserved for those who, amongst other things, tended to the sick and children. [Matthew 25: 31-46]
White Folks have lost there damm mind !! Its always something with them.
“Again, are you ready to raise taxes so that those air-breathing children outside of the womb (that you intend to force strangers to bear) are guaranteed good nutrition, healthcare, and education?
And again, for the record: Jesus never said anything about abortion.
Any true Christian would be working for Universal Health Care, for as Jesus clearly stated, the only way to Heaven is to provide for the least amongst US.”
The above quote is so funny I could barely quit laughing long enough to type this. Let me see if I can get this straight. Jesus would support Universal Health Care and the evidence used for that proposition is his talk about “the least amongst us”, yet he would also be in support of abortion because evidently the “least amongst us” does not include those unborn children in the womb? If anyone qualifies to be called the least amongst us, it is the innocent unborn in the womb.
Honestly, arguing that Jesus would favor abortion and his exhortations about the least amongst us don’t include those in the womb is the most hilarious pretzel logic I think I have ever seen on this site. Who knew that Jesus is pro-abortion. I can just see the signs now:
“Abortion stops a beating heart, but Jesus tells us that is ok, so go ahead and terminate the life of that unborn child.”
Seriously, the post I quoted above is the most hilarious and sloppily argued post I have ever seen here. Seriously, anyone not laughing at the “argument” put forth by News Reference has no sense of humor. I have genuinely come to the conclusion that it is meant to be some kind of parody.
“And again, for the record: Jesus never said anything about abortion.”
Funny, I can’t seem to remember the part of the Bible where Jesus says “Thou Shalt Provide Universal Health Care” either. Must be in another version of the Bible I haven’t read.
Trying to bring Jesus into the argument to justify abortion is a fu%#$ing riot.
PS Just so you don’t think I have changed my mind, I thought I would let you know that I still intend on filibustering the public option bill.
“Jesus Christ specifically said that the path to Heaven was reserved for those who, amongst other things, tended to the sick and children. [Matthew 25: 31-46]”
Whoa, you seem to have forgotten the part that reads:
The path to Heaven is reserved for those who tend to the sick and children, unless of course those children are unborn, in which case it is allright to murder them, thus sayeth the Lord. Matthew 25:31-46 King James Liberal Version
PS Yes, I am still going to filibuster the public option.
AS a Christian, it sure is tiring to listen to the pro-life people pretend that life beginning at conception is a long standing Christian doctrine. It is not! Life beginning a conception was not held by Thomas Aquinas or for that matter all of the Popes up until Pope Pius IX and his edict in 1869.
It is quite possible to be a Christian, and not believe that life begins at conception, and those Christians who do not know their Biblical history are just being intolerant.
The pro-lifers seem to have won out over the pro-women – how does that play out in election politics?
Pro-Lifer: someone who believes in the sanctity of life from conception until birth.
More Dems should sign on to this! Health care should meet the needs of HALF the population, not just the Catholic bishops!!!
Mr. Lieberman, I’m honored to be on the same blog with you. I have tremendous respect for your leadership. Please stay the course.
The issue is not how pro-life plays out in politics. A win in politics by a minority group today will always be corrected tomorrow.
The real problem is the damage mixing religion and politics does to Christianity. A few decades ago, to be a Christian meant high ethical standards. Now it means you belong to a Christian church that is dictatorial in its doctrine, coercive in forcing allegiance to that doctrine, and exclusionary to anyone who will not fall in line.
The more Christians take their religion directly into politics – saying God says, rather than saying I, a Christian, say – the more this mix will eat the guts out of the visible church.
Matthew 25:34-36
“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’
That’s one of my favorites News Ref, thanks, good thoughts to go to sleep on.
How about including our senior citizens in “the least of these”? Approximately 400 million will be cut from Medicare in this plan. My mother will not be able to stay in her assisted living any longer. Does anybody care about this group?
And this is what you get from the modern day Christian. No intellectual discussion, just the mindless quoting of the Bible and the delusion that if I just oppose abortion (and evolution and a few other selected ideas) I will be saved. There is no need to look at the big picture – because it is too complex.
Unfortunately for these mindless Christians the story of the Good Samaritan tells us that you are held accountable for the poor and injured that you pass by and fail to help. To oppose health care for millions of uninsured to support a doctrine that is neither found in the Bible nor supported by religious history (speaking of life at conception) is as close as it gets to being that priest and that Levite (both very religious people) who passed by the injured man.
But worse, the very quoting and the response “one of my favorites” is part of the exclusionary tactics used. These Christians dialogue between themselves and pretend that the non-Christians are not there or are not part of THEIR group.
These responders are starting to demonstrate some of the corruption of the visible church when religion is directly mixed with politics. You are saved by Grace, but that does not stop God from asking, “I gave you a life, what did you do with it”
How do you explain leaving many without health care, because you want to stop people from doing what you think is a sin, but other Christians do not think it is a sin? Is the arrogance of thinking you are always right a sin?
Hahaha, stupid Democrats,
I said “if abortion is murder,” that’s a belief.
I just happen to disagree with the Supreme Court.
I don’t make the laws but there is a higher law, and we will all be judged someday.
Actually, you will not be judged! You are saved by Grace! This means you are free to struggle with your beliefs and not worry that an error will send you to hell.
Put another way, just as you are not saved by good works, you are not damned by the errors you make. It is the belief and the struggle to do the right thing (be like Christ) that makes you a Christian.
This is part of my objection. I do not see many of the fundamentalist Christians engaging in that struggle. They believe, but, as many say, even Satan believes. If all you do is blindly accept the church’s now rigid doctrine, and ignore the issues that the church fails to say is important than a big part of being a Christian is just not there.
This idea that “we will all be judged someday” is part of the corruption. Along with the coercion and exclusion use to keep people in line, the church now teaches with FEAR. The fear that if you do not do exactly as they say you will be damned.
We often hear people speak of the “Good News of Jesus Christ.” If your Christianity works by using fear of damnation on people who are already Christians, I would not call your life as a Christian good news.
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With or without abortion language this bill is the end of freedom as we know it. This is a bad bill and should be defeated regardless of the small concessions dems are willing to make to get control of our lives.
I am withdrawing from this “healthcare reform” debate. I could care less if it ever passes in any shape or form. It has already been comprimised down to nothing more than a boon to the for profit healthcare industry. “Reform” has sold women out and, though I am passed my reproductive years and would do all I could to assist a loved one to choose life rather than to terminate a pregnancy, I would want her to have that choice because I would NOT want anyone forcing her to carry to term OR to terminate! The debate during the past summer was ridiculous and one big Freak Show and much wasted time, energy, and resources. All that was needed was this Stupid Stupak Amendment to kill this benign, empty reform effort. I comprimised big time by coming to terms that “reform” would not be Single Payor; then, limited Public Option. I am all out of comprimise. As a woman, I resent the remarks made in debate by Republican lawmakers re women’s health needs, status, and I thoroughly resent this latest tactic to address Roe v Wade by eliminating access to a legal, medically sound procedure that is integral to womens’s health issues. This amendment may make the fat white men feel better but it will increase costs for care when women return to the butchers in back alleys for termination of pregnancies. Until it is one of their own, they will not care, since everything they do is based on their own personal need system. I believe we should insert amendments to eliminate funding for erectile dysfunction, except in the case of Diabetes Type I dysfunction, to include vacuum devices, medication, surgery, et al, since, men are “like smokers” and use up so many resources to keep an aging appendage in working condition.
First they threw **** under the bus by refusing to throw support behind gay marriage or repealing DADT, then they gave up the public option to contain costs on health care, now women don’t matter. The Democrats are selling us out to get the power to do all the good things they really stand for, but in the end, they’ve forgotten everything they’ve stood for in the first place.
Scientifically, a human being’s life begins at conception. That is when it starts growing and doesn’t stop. We don’t know if a soul even ever enters it. So to say that that happens at birth is also a “belief” that should not be considered when making law. If you are going strictly on which is most important from an ethical standpoint, life is more important that privacy. And the whole idea that we should kill a person because they are going to be born poor or to parents who aren’t great, would mean taking out most of the population of the world.
Certainly we can all agree that elective surgeries should not be paid for by anyone except the person receiving it. Should we all pay for a tummy tuck because it is legal, and the person is having emotional trauma over her flabby belly? If it is going to remain legal on the basic or privacy, shouldn’t it at least be privately funded?
See:
feministsforlife.org
I understand that abortion may always have to remain a legal option. However, certainly we should all be discouraging it and upholding humanitarian principals. And yes, along with help for the mothers before and after the birth of their babies, and all of the programs that would come with it. All of the name calling and stereotyping gets us nowhere. But we could all come together and provide support for one another. Find a common cause. Religion doesn’t even have to be a part of it. We don’t have to wonder when a soul enters a body or what God thinks of it. We can all agree that murder is wrong. And we can all agree that women and babies need help. If you believe abortion should be a choice, let’s make it the very last choice a woman has to make. Let’s give each woman LOTS of other options!
Here’s one very postive way we can make our voices heard, which can serve as lesson for the Senate, too.
Twenty House Democrats voted AGAINST the Stupak-Pitts anti-choice amendment and voted FOR health care reform despite representing districts which lean Republican or are otherwise difficult. They’re worthy of your support to show that when they stand up and do the right thing, progressives will have their backs.
They’re ranked on this page from the most Republican district down towards the middle. Each of them deserves some support today — $5 each, $10, whatever you can do:
http://www.actblue.com/page/wevegotyourback
Even if I took Agnostic Feminist at their word that scientifically a human life begins at conception – that does not give that “life” a right to use someone else as life support against their will. Just as I cannot force anyone else to be my life support against their will.
So many passions… we are all wanting to do what we see is the “correct” thing. But correct for who? Protect life… it could be yours that is terminated next.
To listen to right wingers support government interference in a woman’s choice of when she should start her family is surreal.
And “feminists” against abortion rights is a contradiction in terms, it’s women against women’s rights is what it really is.
As for Stupak, it’s obscene that he’s pulling this right wing fraud.
Stupak is pitting his fanatic belief that he has the right to limit a woman’s choice of when she has a family against the opportunity for LIFE saving health care expansion.
And as for those that think abortion is evil, I can certainly understand you opinions, I personally find it evil to force a stranger to carry a pregnancy to term.
And lets be clear, right wingers that force strangers to carry pregnancies to term are dead beat parents, they abandon breathing children by the millions.
Right wingers that force strangers to have children then abandon those children’s healthcare, abandon those children’s basic nutrition, abandon those children’s educations.
That’s the true evil: Right wingers abandoning breathing children by the millions.
Those that care about children vote for liberals because liberals support those that are the least amongst US (just like Jesus).
In response to the last post…
Are you saying that Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton were not feminists? They also thought abortion was wrong. What is the last thing you have done for women and their rights? Feminists for Life have done a lot to try and find out why women obtain abortions and how they can give women another option. For instance, most women in this country who get abortions are college aged. They see having a baby during this time as meaning they would have to drop out of school and raise their baby in poverty. FFL have created a program to encourage and help fund colleges so that they can have family housing, daycare and flexible hours for students who are mothers. This is something most college campuses do not yet have.
I never said I thought it should be illegal. I am just saying that the choice between raising a baby by yourself in poverty or letting your baby die, isn’t much of a choice. I have no interest in forcing anybody to turn over their body to grow another human. I just think there should be an acknowledgment that it is another person and that that person will die via abortion. Why is that so hard to admit? Because it is an ugly truth. So legal, yes. But no big deal? Not taking a life? Just a blob? No. There are real implications to all of this. It is very complex. And reducing each other to vague stereotypes is wrong. Ex:
“Right wingers that force strangers to have children then abandon those children’s healthcare, abandon those children’s basic nutrition, abandon those children’s educations.”
First of all, I am a registered and voting Democrat. I have children that I take good care of and I encourage and donate money to programs that educate the children of my community. Although I am mostly left wing, and probably much more so in many ways that most left-wingers, I am not going to demonize someone of a differing viewpoint, especially if I can see that it is coming from a good place. There are good people on both sides of the issues. And there are a lot of people like me who are somewhere in the middle.
And by the way, none of us know how Jesus would have voted, so that is completely irrelevant.
2/2/2010
As this fight grows and the issues of the Bill come to light for people to read, so it is true that the moral building block is lost to the value of the $100 Trillion dollar Health Care Forum that Government Officials wish to Force Pay and also tax that system. Oooops, is this the first time this amount was brought up, $100,Trillion Dollars that the States fight over.
You see Government Officials do not have a clue of what the people intend to do, the phone call I got yesterday, there is a Boycott about to take place and as of now it is over 45 million people strong. This Bill has failed because it lack a moral foundation.
My My My, To build a United Health Care Forum you must unite all the people as one. I once wrote to President Obama and stated to take the words of 250 million people of what Health Care should do for them, and place this before all on tv, remove this force pay concept, the pick and choose the best and dump the rest, all issues that are not of a moral building block of Bill To Law.
But to do this you must step out side of the Artificial Intelligence within Government of what the dollar is next to the needs of a people. It must be known that the tax against the health care system is because it is a $100 trillion dollar package.
I see something and it starts with Health Care vs. The People vs. The Dollar and it grows,
I have weighed this issue Health Care Bill vs. Constitution, and if a Political Party Gains control over a people because of the Health Care Tax Dollars, then it is laws with out moral value.
You see when tobacco companies became under fire the laws were based on a moral value because of the issues within.
The moral building blocks from Bill to Law is not supported because these Laws are for increase taxes and force pay against the people and a increase tax forum in a wide coverage stated to be in the best interest of the Country.
I dont see the moral building block of which the words for Health Care stands for. It is Health care vs. the dollar. Such issues as Health Care dollars for killing yourself, ideas of DNA tasting to be able to get Health Care “to pick the best and dump the rest, implants to get Health Care and so on. Welcome to the 21st century of Health Care Reform.
exmp.,
So this is Health Care Reform at its best, please allow me to share a concept that will open your mind in a way never thought of for a United Health Care Forum Concept. At first I stood alone and I wrote my first blog and little did I know that thousands of people and companies stood by it,
I have waited to see the issues of tax increase and health care, something that may be wrote by President Obama,
You see a lot of what I write, is in fact that, I do not seek Political support because I do not belong to any party. As for President Obama and theses 60 people that hold seat of Government who wish to build 1900 page of law to Govern this system because of this Health Care dollar. I watch them stumble about without a clue of how to fix this failed system. To see into this failure, you must allow this system to be seen as a forum for dollars of taxes created as a constant as a yearly figure. This prediction of dollar for the future, is in fact what I call Artificial Intelligence built on the hope that taxes will stay a constant figure. Our tax system today is also a failure and to build more Tax Laws against the Health Care issue will only bring cost up no matter what Government Officials state.
To state it simple if Health Care Insurance Companies Unite and hand over this issue then the Officials of Government, then they will have have no choice but to turn their eye to the companies of medication and medical supplies and hospitals and Doctors who charge cost that is the cause and effect of this failure within this system.
This Health Care Forum we offer is built on a moral value, a strategic forum to place issues to work ,that offers freedom to be a part of it or not. This force pay against companies, force pay against VETS, and so on, shows the lack of a moral building block within this Health Care Reform.
What we offer is that, will, Lets use the AARP Health Care Insurance Company, and lets say that they have 30 million members. To show that this company can earn $150 million dollars per month and be released from the burden of medical cost, by what we wish to show as kind of Health Care Tax Forum that covers the needs of the people and much more. And a freedom of choice for a pay in to a forum to a Insurance Company for people who do not trust this system within The United States Government. A tax forum forces the Government system to work for the people and at the same time forces Government Officials to work for the people within this forum against unjust cost.
To reach out to a company and sit down with them to build something never attempted in order to rebuild lives and the National Security of The United States as a moral building block without laws to Govern, but to protect this system from crime is what a moral law use to stand for.
To show a $100 trillion dollar strategic building block by companies of freewill that step forward to help rebuild America. To build the most powerful anti war / crime forum ever conceived by such as I a nobody that only seek to only go back to work as a painter and rebuild his little company dream.
As stated at first I stood alone against so many and I have found the uniting of people of different faith that seeks the same as I do. What makes FASC Concepts different, we do not ask for money and we opened a door for people to put their faith into themselves as a person and not what we say, to build on this and protect it under the concepts of law such as the Patriot Act. {A Moral Concept}. I do ask only this, please allow yourself to see into my mind of what I see that is needed………
There is a day coming that Officials of Government will see that the Laws built against God and Country was the first steps of the United States Of America headed for failure because it lacks moral value. This is what our enemies see, a Country of Laws that should of never been created by few against so many people of the USA.
Is it so hard to see a concept for a Health Care Stimulus Package that builds jobs and life within a anti war / crime forum ? But it was the war and the crimes committed after 9/11/2001 of how I was allowed to see into the basic tax forum failure. And to rebuild the security within the Country. This tax forum against the Health Care Dollars is chump change and so is this $100 trillion dollars, when it is stood up next to the people. The true back bone of America is the people and their ideas to rebuild America in a effort to ready ourself against the next attacks on our land.
I see something and I am that little dyslectic kid that finds it hard to write what I see, but as of yet I still have my hand raised high in hopes that the teacher with let me share.
Henry Massingale
FASC Concepts in and for Pay It Forward
found on google.com. And yahoo look for page 1 american dream offical site.
To bring all the issues under one web site