Anti-Reform Group Takes Credit For Helping Gin Up Town Hall Rallies
Conservatives for Patients’ Rights, the operation that’s running a national campaign against a public health care option, is now publicly taking credit for helping gin up the sometimes-rowdy outbursts targeting House Dems at town hall meetings around the country, raising questions about their spontaneity.
CPR is the group headed by controversial former hospitals exec Rick Scott that’s spending millions on ads attacking reform in all sorts of lurid ways, a campaign that’s being handled by the same P.R. mavens behind the Swift Boat Vets.
In response to my questions, a spokesman for the group confirmed that it has undertaken a concerted effort to get people out to the town hall meetings to protest reform. The spokesperson, Brian Burgess, confirmed that CPR is emailing out “town hall alert” flyers, and schedules of town hall meetings, to its mailing list.
These efforts — combined with CPR’s effort to enlist Tea Party-ers, as reported yesterday by TPM — provide a glimpse into the ways anti-reform groups are trying to create a sense of public momentum in their favor.
CPR spokesman Burgess confirmed that the group had set up a list serv designed to reach out to “third party groups” involved in the health care fight, including the Tea Party activists. And in a statement emailed to me, Scott, who was ousted as a health-care exec amid a 1990s fraud probe, took credit for the town hall showings.
“We have invested a lot of time, energy and resources into educating Americans over the past several months about the dangers of government-run health care and I think we’re seeing some of the fruits of that campaign,” Scott said, though he claimed outrage was spontaneous.
Similarly, America’s Health Insurance Plans, or AHIP, the insurance industry group, has stationed employees in 30 states to track local town hall events.
The question is whether these uprisings are actually helpful to the anti-reform cause, or whether their raucus agitprop will work againt them. Dems have blasted out to reporters examples of protestors harrassing House Dems.
“The more you dig the more you learn that this is a carefully orchestrated effort by special interest lobbyists and the Republican Party, who are using fringe elements on the right to protect insurance company profits and defeat health care reform,” said House Dem leadership aide Doug Thornell. “The anger at these events looks very similar to what we saw at McCain/Palin rallies in the fall.”
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Update: The White House attacks CPR for manufacturing anger.
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Faking these protests and using the unintelligent as pawns. What a surprise.
The problem for them and one the establishment Democratic Party should exploit, is that we have seen this before. As a reader pointed out to Josh Marshall this is EXACTLY like the fake protests over the 2000 Presidential elections down here in Florida. If the DNC or DCCC or DSCC really wants to turn this back on the Republicans they should show footage from the fake riots in 2000 and then footage of the townhall disruptions in an ad and pose this question to the viewer. “After seeing what these fake protests brought in 2000 are we willing to allow it to happen to our country again? Call X senator/congressman to show your support for health care reform”
Easy and cheap just like I like it. At the least Dem lawmakers should harken back to those 2000 fake protests whenever someone asks them about the townhall disruptions.
“This is a carefully orchestrated effort by … the Republican Party.”
Where’s the support for that statement?
Boy, sbj SURE is protective of the Republican Party considering he isn’t a Republican…..according to him.
LOL
and … ?
The DNC needs to stay fixed and remember that while reform might be worrisome to the people constantly assailed by right-wing talking points, it is undeniable that no reform would be very bad for all constituents and therefore their president and party. Bad results are bad politics.
Here comes the counterpunch:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/04/obama-and-dnc-try-turning_n_250890.html
“Tea Party activists”
When they stop referring to the “Democrat Party,” I’ll stop calling them “Tea-baggers.”
I have seen some of the teabaggers in action in Austin. They are an angry, mindless group on the whole. I went to an event that collected over 500 names with contact info to work on behalf of Obama in passing health care reform. There were maybe 40 teabaggers across the street trying to shout down our side. They had tacky signs and appeared unhinged. I think, in general, Americans don’t like protestors, especially ones that are emotional and appear unstable.
I think the teabaggers can be used against the Republican Party pretty easily. Of course, the problem will be the press trying to present the teabaggers as a rational group that represents a large portion of the US. A lot of this will depend upon whether the media hides the ugly elements of the teabaggers. We will have to fight hard to make sure that doesn’t happen.
We also saw this, unfortunately, in the 1930s. When the Brooks Brother riot occurred in Florida, intimidating the Dade County recount people into stopping the recount, I feared that fascist, literal fascist, tactics had come to America bigtime. I took to calling their candidate “Busholini”… Is this the politics anyone but big money wants?
First the birthers and then the baggers. Perhaps more time trying to be proponents of your policies rather than trying to find boogeymen?
We have invested a lot of time, energy and resources into educating Americans over the past several months about the dangers of government-run health care
Just as they always do. In this matter they are no different from the tobacco companies were before they finally were forced to admit it was all a sham and that they had known for decades how harmful their product was.
The private health insurance industry is one of the very few true beneficiaries from our present healthcare paradigm and they are fighting tooth and nail to make certain it stays that way, no matter how many Americans they force into bankruptcy along the way, and no matter how many they kick off the rolls of the insured, placing those people’s futures at risk of ruin.
Actually, as Sully rightly observes, the ones not offering proposals are those on the right:
As for genuine concern about healthcare, I think that’s essential to getting the right answer(s). But so far, all I’m hearing are hecklers, and abstract hysteria about socialism. I have yet to hear from the tea-bagging right how they plan to prevent soaring healthcare costs from bankrupting private industry and decimating the public purse. And I never heard from them about how they intended to cut spending and balance the budget.
Given the lack of substantive alternatives to real communal problems, they strike me as simply a form of emotional reaction to the end of the far right’s dominance of American discourse. And that’s really a problem for conservatism, not Obama.
Look how mad you libs are now that you don’t have a monopoly on the rent-a-mob market. ACORN and MoveOn have some competition now. We’re using your own Alinskyite tactics against you.
@oddjob: The group that is accused of organizing these disruptions has a web site, link below. They clearly lay out the goals of reform as they see it and analyze every healthcare reform package so far proposed. A variety of proposals have been offered from the right – you (and Sully) are quite demonstrably wrong.
http://www.cprights.org/plans.php
(Oh those pesky facts!)
@oddjob: If the health insurance industry is such an evil, then why does the Democratic party take so much of their PAC money? Read it and weep:
http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.php?ind=H01
As an earlier poster (NC-11-CD) quite rightly pointed out regarding HB 3200:
“You’ll see a bill that exempts 86% of small businesses from having to provide health care to their workers, but still requires individuals to give money to insurers. It cuts subsidies so that the middle class will still be forced to pay exorbitant sums to those same insurers.”
sbj. The other day you were trying to argue that insurance is only trying to come out against the public option. Now that CPR has stated they are behind the fascist shout downs and AHIP is assisting in tracking town halls can we agree insurance has no interest in reform.
“This is a carefully orchestrated effort by … the Republican Party.”
Where’s the support for that statement?”
I’m gonna guess Dick Armey is a member of the Republican party being registered as a Republican. His group, FreedomWorks is also organizing groups to rail again health care reform among other things. So, yeah.
Republicans are orchestrating these events.
Or maybe you meant elected Republican officials which nobody here was talking about.
Because it has money, and at the end of the day that matters more to most politicians than anything else. That’s no secret (& I’m not a Dem. anyway).
The health insurance industry also spends like mad on politicians in office (regardless of party), making certain the politicians are aware that if they cross the industry the money will be shut off.
sbj. Not all Democrats are alike. Sure, some might accept money. It just so happens that some of those are the same Democrats that are coming out strongly against the public option. Now, if they are accepting money and are also for the public option then I’d say the insurance companies just got played.
“# Time for a Change | August 4th, 2009 at 01:19 pm
Look how mad you libs are now …We’re using your own Alinskyite tactics against you.”
Aha! The Alinskyers have become the Alinskyees. touche
@mike: “Can we agree insurance has no interest in reform?”
Not at all. You seem to be misunderstanding a basic fact here – Obama’s reform means that 47 million uninusred will be new health insurance customers! They are all for THAT kind of reform – just opposed to the public option.
“Maybe you meant elected Republican officials which nobody here was talking about.”
Sigh. I was QUOTING House Dem leadership aide Doug Thornell! And no (c’mon now!) if a registered Republican organizes a rally that DOES NOT equal an orchestrated effort of the Republican PARTY.
@oddjob: The health insurance companies are giving money like mad to Dems to let them know that they won’t be getting any money?
LMAO!
The insurance cos aren’t getting played – you are! Dem healthcare reform means a neutered public option and more customers for the insurers. Wake up.
The health insurance companies are giving money like mad to Dems to let them know that they won’t be getting any money?
Before you dismiss the comment out of hand, go watch, *******.
(The expletive began with an “a” and ended with an “e”.)
Dem healthcare reform means a neutered public option and more customers for the insurers.
For now, and then when it becomes clear that a system akin to Medicare works well and the private companies only wreck everything the groundwork will already be in place to force them out altogether, as the rest of the civilized world successfully did decades ago, because healthcare works better when you do so.
“The insurance cos aren’t getting played – you are! Dem healthcare reform means a neutered public option and more customers for the insurers. Wake up.”
The Rep healthcare reform means more subsidies for insurers in the form of tax rebates to shop for insurance and NO public option.
@oddjob: “The groundwork will already be in place to force them out altogether.”
Now I am confused. Obama says that we won’t have to lose our current health insurance plan. You seem to be saying that that is precisely the plan?
(It does not help your case to refer to someone as an a*****e … but it does make you seem real tough! Try using “rear end” – much more polite.)
I read the Potter transcript and much of what he says supports exactly what I am saying.
“The Rep healthcare reform means more subsidies for insurers in the form of tax rebates to shop for insurance and NO public option.”
Duh! One of the Repubs’ goals is to reduce Medicare’s long term funding problem – one way is to transfer people to private insurance. I thought that addressing the long term funding problem was one of Obama’s goals
- but the current bills make the long term fed funding problems worse!
In return for more customers the insurance companies seem willing to address some of the stickier problems we all dislike – kicking people off, denying pre-existing conditions, portability. Let’s work on those issues and address the Medicare funding problem while preserving our free market system.
Obama says that we won’t have to lose our current health insurance plan. You seem to be saying that that is precisely the plan?
I don’t know what Obama’s thoughts are regarding the long term. You read my thoughts.
one way is to transfer people to private insurance
Where they will get kicked out of the system altogether because they will be expensive to cover, and thus not profitable.
@oddjob: In exchange for millions of customers, the ins cos agree to reforms. Is that part not getting through to you?
So when folks “fearmonger” by saying that the public option is the first step to getting rid of private insurance altogether … they aren’t really using scare tactics? They’ve hit the nail on the head?
You are making my head spin …
Why keep something that creates a system demonstratably worse than all the others used by all of the other industrialized democracies.
For the sake of an ideology???
THAT’S stupid.
the ins cos agree to reforms
Which in the future they wipe out by getting the Congress to refuse to pay for enforcement oversight.
@oddjob: The group that is accused of organizing these disruptions has a web site, link below. They clearly lay out the goals of reform as they see it and analyze every healthcare reform package so far proposed. A variety of proposals have been offered from the right – you (and Sully) are quite demonstrably wrong.
http://www.cprights.org/plans.php
Went to the website there several plans listed, only 2 were by the GOP. Neither explained how the plan would be financed. Neither explained had a mechanism for lowering cost.
@nard: oddjob claimed that “the ones not offering proposals are those on the right.” The right – not the GOP. And, at any rate, you have proved my point. There are at least two plans that have been offered by the right. (Some others aren’t analyzed at that site.)
He also quoted Sullivan saying, “I have yet to hear from the tea-bagging right how they plan to prevent soaring healthcare costs from bankrupting private industry and decimating the public purse. And I never heard from them about how they intended to cut spending and balance the budget.”
I did not address that charge (which is also a lie). At any rate, the other day I did indeed tell JennD of a variety of ways to help control Medicare costs:
“How to reduce rising costs in Medicare? I dunno – means testing and moving them onto private insurance via tax credits? Reduce payments for low value services, reform prescription drug payments, offer Medicaid and SCHIP recipients a voucher with which they can purchase private insurance instead, move much more aggressively to revamp the way Medicare pays for care to discourage unnecessary services and reward “value” over volume, create a Medicare “value index” to change the way doctors are paid, “bundle” payments to doctors and hospitals together for a patient’s illness to encourage more efficient care, reform Medicaid by dictating that states must cover 90 percent of those below 200 percent of the federal poverty level before they can expand eligibility levels under Medicaid and SCHIP.”
These ideas have been offered by the right as well as by bipartisan committees.
Your move?
I did not address that charge (which is also a lie).
I didn’t know you had access to Sully’s email traffic. Do you work for him at The Atlantic?
When some one got out of hand a Bush rally they were physically removed. The crowd wouldn’t stand for it. Why not the dems. They are afraid.
SBJ,
You want support for the statement that the faux populist rallies are being orchestrated by your (Republican) Party.
From Politico:
“Rep. Pete Sessions, R.-Texas, told Politico that the time for civil town hall meetings is now “over” as a leaked memo from a conservative activist reveals strategies for disrupting the meetings across the United States.
The memo, entitled “Rocking the Town Halls — Best Practices,” recommends that anti-health care reform protesters frequently disrupt Democrats’ town hall meetings. “The goal is to rattle him,” the memo advises.
Politico reported that the tactics appear to have been put into action at several town hall meetings held by Democrats. One representative was even hung in effigy outside his office.”
Or,
From Senator Jim DeMint (R-SC):
“If we’re able to stop Obama on this it will be his Waterloo. It will break him”
Or, as reported by Politico on July 17:
“Conservative leaders will push delay any vote on health care reform until after the August recess to capitalize on what they say is a growing tide of opposition to reform measures, they said on a conference call with “tea party” participants today.”
And, I’m sure that you will claim that this is all just a fluke.
@Ted:
Ummm … ? I don’t think your quotes support your point?
Faux populist indeed.
Jesus why did they have to call me on this one? It was so perfect really it was. I went back on my Haliburton manufactured Time MachineTM and reprogrammed Obama’s teleprompter to make Obama say single payer system and that all private insurance would be outlawed.
Of course they were in completely seperate sentences so he wouldn’t notice and I could splice them up to make it look like he not only favored a single payer socialist healthcare system, but he wanted an end to employer healthcare coverage; because those things are not like mutually exclusive or anything I had to have him say both in a prepared speech. Then I came back forward in time, which is quite tiring by the way, and created a Youtube video with the soundbites edited for maximum effect.
Granted the splicing was a little crude, I had to include over 50 seconds of him talking without pausing when I had wanted to make him look like Max Headrone and start freestyling beats, but hey I am not a visual effects major.
I am just your friendly neighborhood defender of the status quo!
This really pisses me off they would come out and actually call me a liar like that though, I put a lot of effort into making Obama say those things.
To SBJ who asked:
“This is a carefully orchestrated effort by … the Republican Party.”
Where’s the support for that statement?
Here is support for that statement:
First, you have to pretend to support it.
Then use phrases like, “government takeover,”
“delayed care is denied care,”
“consequences of rationing,”
“bureaucrats, not doctors prescribing medicine.”
from a
Memo by Frank Luntz Republican Strategist
feel free to google it.
We spend 250 billion dollars a year in a War of Choice in Iraq, and we cannot pay 90 billion dollars to keep our nation healthy? I mean are you that sore losers, or are we militaristic? If so, that we should re-start the Draft and see how many likes war and the spending & pain & suffering that accompanies any war.
The epitome of Fraud Waste and Abuse—Root that out and we can afford much more!
Summary: The Wall Street Journal reported that Richard Scott, “the former chief executive of HCA Inc,” had formed the non-profit organization Conservatives for Patients’ Rights as part of a “lobbying campaign to derail or modify” President Obama’s health care proposals, but failed to note that Scott resigned from HCA in 1997 amid a federal investigation into the company’s Medicare billing, physician recruiting, and home-care practices. HCA eventually pleaded guilty to fraud charges and paid approximately $1.7 billion in fines and penalties.
THURSDAY, JUNE 26, 2003; http://WWW.USDOJ.GOV;
HCA Inc. (formerly known as Columbia/HCA and HCA – The Healthcare Company)
LARGEST HEALTH CARE FRAUD CASE IN U.S. HISTORY SETTLED; HCA INVESTIGATION NETS RECORD TOTAL OF $1.7 BILLION
Note: Hospital Corporation of America (HCA) was acquired by Columbia in 1994.
Who is Richard Scott? Who is Richard Rainwater? Who is Darla Moore?
Before GW Bush was affiliated with Richard Rainwater may I remind you-Richard Scott was the ex-partner of Richard Rainwater with Columbia Homecare Group.
Why does this matter? Because the wrath of Richard Scott’s fraud just ended in December 2008 in the largest private financial fraud case in our country’s history in 2002 when FBI raided the offices of National Century Financial Enterprises Dublin, Ohio, headquarters.
Guess where Columbia and many of the other publicly traded healthcare companies DUMPED their losing asset, Home healthcare? National Century Financial Enterprises
National Century Financial Enterprises:
“This case is one of the largest corporate fraud investigations involving a privately held company headquartered in small town America,” said Assistant Director Kenneth W. Kaiser of the FBI Criminal Investigative Division.
March 26, 2008; By Jodi Andes; THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH
Nine other executives have been convicted or pleaded guilty in National Century’s collapse. Only Poulsen and executive James Happ still await trial.
Only Poulsen and executive James Happ still await trial?
December 9, 2008. James K. Happ, 48, is charged with conspiracy, money-laundering conspiracy and three counts of wire fraud; the 11th National Century executive to be tried or admit guilt. , Also today, a former friend of Happ’s testified that, while working at National Century, Happ boasted that he never could be charged with any fraud because he didn’t sign anything.
December 18, 2008 – The ONE AND ONLY acquittal; James K Happ!
By Jodi Andes THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH
Prosecutors’ case fell short, juror says National Century fraud case produces 1st acquittal ; The “not guilty” verdicts that came in federal court yesterday were not so much a vindication of the last National Century Financial Enterprises executive to stand trial, a juror said.
Instead, they were more a belief that federal prosecutors had not done their job, the juror said after he and his fellow jurors acquitted James K. Happ of five counts after 12 hours of deliberation. “He very well may have been guilty. A lot of us thought he was,” said the juror who wouldn’t give his name. “But if he was, you gotta have the evidence.”
Where was James K Happ when Richard Scott was at Columbia in 1997?
In 1997 James K Happ was the CFO of the Dallas-based Columbia Homecare Group, Inc. “In this role, he directed the company through the challenging reimbursement climate, known as the interim payment system, and participated in the divestiture of all of Columbia/HCA’s home care operations” (SEC Form)
President Obama- you had to clean up the party of no – country first- idea of Medicare Reform-
Medicare Modernization Act of 2003, which denied Medicare the right to bargain for lower drug prices, locked in overpayments to private insurance companies, and did nothing, nothing at all, to pay for its proposed outlays.
Please be aware of what happened in 1997!
Balanced Budget Act of 1997-
Please- Please- Pay attention to what happened here!
In 1997, HCA (Hospital Corporation of America) – was the LARGEST HOME HEALTH CARE Company in our country.
HCA Inc. (formerly known as Columbia/HCA and HCA – The Healthcare Company)
Note: Hospital Corporation of America (HCA) was acquired by Columbia in 1994.
Columbia/HCA was a partnership of financier Richard Rainwater of Ft. Worth and lawyer Richard Scott.
Under the Balanced Budget Act of 1997- Home health – was struggling; about 1,400 agencies closed nationwide in 1998.
On Sept 8, 1998 Standard and Poors downgraded the bonds of Charter/HCA
Rainwater also owned a large stake in Magellan Health Care which controls Charter Medical. Magellan, run by Darla Moore, is the largest network of psychiatric hospitals in the country. They are becoming more and more involved in obtaining government money for services formerly not covered as health care, according to Fortune Magazine.
(Note: Rick Scott was terminated by Darla Moore, the wife of Richard Rainwater in 1997. According to Fortune Magazine, the “Toughest Babe in the Business”, Moore created the Corporate Bankruptcy Finance Tool- DIP- (Debtor in Possession), while employed at a Chase bank on Wall Street.
“They are becoming more and more involved in obtaining government money for services formerly not covered as health care, according to Fortune Magazine. “
2003-WWW.USDOJ.GOV – HCA INVESTIGATION – LARGEST HEALTH CARE FRAUD CASE IN U.S. HISTORY SETTLED
HCA not only robbed the country’s Medicare/Medicaid system, but the entire Healthcare system and its tentacles.
Connect- Healthcare Finance Fraud, SEC Fraud, Bankruptcy Fraud, Financial Fraud and Mortgage Fraud- all for ‘market driven healthcare’ in America?
2009 – The Wall Street Journal reported that Richard Scott, “the former chief executive of HCA Inc,” had formed the non-profit organization Conservatives for Patients’ Rights as part of a “lobbying campaign to derail or modify” President Obama’s health care proposals,…
In 1997, Rick Scott was terminated by Darla Moore. As part of Richard Scott’s severance package from Columbia he was paid $5.13 million and given a five year consulting contract at $950,000 per year.
1997 + 5 = 2002
In 2002 FBI raided the offices of National Century Financial Enterprises in Dublin, Ohio
“This case is one of the largest corporate fraud investigations involving a privately held company headquartered in small town America,” said Assistant Director Kenneth W. Kaiser of the FBI Criminal Investigative Division.
In October 2008- Leo Wise, now at the OCE —stated “Ladies and gentlemen, this is a case of staggering fraud,” ‘It is one of the largest frauds the FBI has ever investigated.
Guess where ALL of Richard Scott’s & Richard Rainwater’s Columbia/ HCA and certain subsidiaries and joint ventures were?
National Century Financial Enterprises, Inc.! (NCFE).
One prosecutor stated ‘…’NCFE- the largest corporate fraud investigations involving a privately held company and no one has ever heard of.’
NO ONE HAS EVER HEARD OF? (The largest corporate fraud investigation…)
Why is that?
Richard Rainwater was GW Bush’s ex- partner with the Rangers.
October 2008, Leo Wise now at the OCE office prosecuted the CEO and co-founder of National Century Financial Enterprises – CEO Sentenced to 30 Years in Prison
12 Executives/co-Founders already found guilty-
December 18, 2008, almost one month before GW Bush leaves office- the last person to stand trial, the ONE and ONLY acquittal- James K Happ!
Jurors stated ‘PROSECUTOR DID NOT DO HIS JOB’-
Prosecutors’ case fell short juror says-National Century fraud case produces 1st and only acquittal The “not guilty” verdicts that came in federal court yesterday were not so much a vindication of the last National Century Financial Enterprises executive to stand trial, a juror said.
Instead, they were more a belief that federal prosecutors had not done their job, …
“He very well may have been guilty. A lot of us thought he was,” said the juror who wouldn’t give his name…
While Richard Scott was at Columbia in 1997 – James K Happ was CFO of Columbia Homecare Group, Inc.
James K Happ, only acquittal at National Century Financial Enterprises, Inc‘s who just so happened to be the CFO of Columbia Homecare Group.
Leo Wise now at the OCE what happened? Jurors stated ‘PROSECUTOR DID NOT DO HIS JOB’-
This con artist and his company were indicted for healthcare fraud and fined “megabucks” in the mid 90’s. unbelieveable….
@sbj your comment “47 million uninusred will be new health insurance customers! They are all for THAT kind of reform”
The ins cos could already have those customers, but many of them they’ve either dropped their coverage or declined to give it to them in the first place. If there had been a way to take on those 47 million they would have already do it for the sake of more profits
@TBM: Not so much. Reform will now mandate that individuals have to have coverage, it will mandate that employers have to provide coverage, and it will provide govt money to purchase same.
@arch: The Dem spokesperson said that the disruption of townhalls was a “carefully orchestrated effort by … the Republican Party.” You are quoting Luntz regarding a general strategy to pushback against the public option. Not the same thing at all.
I have never taken money to voice my opinions, and NONE of the rallies I’ve attended have had any violence. I know that’s unbelievable to you and difficult to understand, but I believe in the Bill of Rights and Constitution. Libs spent eight years attacking Bush. Now you slap at moderates and conservatives for voicing theirs. Make up your minds. And yes, Bush had his faults. But as Michelle Malkin stated directly to Joy Behar the other day: News flash, Bush is no longer President. Me? Unintelligent? Nope. Perhaps the “silent majority” is frustrating and annoying some people? Good. THAT is priceless…
This is great !! I am really fired up to support President Obama’s Health Care Reform. The fascist have many uguly faces. The two things that unite them in the present and across time is their opposition to Democratic Freedom and process, such as open debate on the merits of issues and the absence of logic,reason, morale principles, and tolerance toward opposing views. We must adopt the Colin Powell doctrine of overwhelming force (numbers) at Town Hall meetings and every public forum. Now is the time for reasonable people regardless of political orientation, to slam this undemocratic strategy and put it to bed for a decade or two. It will never completely disappear. This creases to be a political issue as much as a defense of the democratic process.
Question what do these birthers, tea bagger, racist, and plain ignorant people expect to accomplish by there bulling tacts? Ok they go and make fools of themselves and reinfornce the neo-nazi republican party theme. Personally they can raise as much hell as they like, but it wont deter the fact that we must have a public option. They can’t stop progress! you think they would have learned from the Nov. 4th election that this type of strategy will back fire. Becuase I know for a fact there are a lot of republicans who are really embarrissed by this behavior. Which make me more determine to see the Gop go down in smoke they have shown there true colors! News Flash calling Obama a socialist will not get you back into the whitehouse!
I agree this strategy will backfire! they might win the battle but will lose the war!
Slug said “Faking these protests and using the unintelligent as pawns. What a surprise.” – amazing that those who dare to disagree with the liberal progressive view are automatically unintelligent and fake. If anyone is a pawn my friend, it is those who are blinding swallowing whatever tripe their liberal progressive handlers feed them. The latest polling data suggests you should attack big evil insurance companies. That is all this is to you people, just another policy to try to ram thorough. Go pawns go…
Charity – interesting name. It means freely giving to those in need… and yet you advocate forceful theft from one group of citizens to give to another group based on political and social formulas developed by bureaucrats in D.C. Tell me, is it really charity if it comes at the muzzle of a gun, or is that just plain robbery? And for the record, I am no fan of the GOP either – I simply think we should actually abide by the Constitution. I do not want to stop progress – but the simple fact is that the progress this nation has made until now has been BECAUSE of our private, free enterprise system. Government run agencies do not innovate (see DMV for example) – the do not progress except to become more and more a drain on the society they are supposed to be serving.
Boy Howdy, this is the blog I was looking for. Hasn’t anyone noticed the curious echo of Hitler’s “Brownshirts” so evident in these staged events. Remember now, the definition of “facism” is “rule by corporation.” Need I say more?
So Rick,
Following your logic,
Those cops on the beat…a drain on society.
And those pesky firefighters….a drain on society
The U.S. Military….a drain on society
The Veteran’s Administration…with a lower cost per patient than either Medicare or any private insurer….a drain on society.
Let’s just get rid of all of that, shall we?
@sbj: i just found this site, but i find sbj’s arrogance in his opinions to be overwhelming. I really think sbj is juggling facts about healthcare and health reform that he fundamentally does not grasp, or at least he is not capable of forming into a coherent, logical body of thought.
1. You say CPR lays out its principles on its website (and implicitly seem to be defending this group). CPR does, but let’s take a look at this “group’s” principles: (a) Pillar two “competition”: CPR proposes that “burdensome” regulations should be removed from health insurers. Please, make the case as to how regulations are “burdensome” and how getting rid of regulations (such as requiring health insurers to cover all people, even the sick, as here in my homestate of NY) would help “patients” which CPR claims it is all about. I think this is an extremely dangerous proposition. Can we say “rescission” the second you get sick? (b) Pillar one “choice”: CPR talks about how individuals should be able to choose their health insurance company. Please explain how that is the case today. Oh, and please explain how any of the 4 current democratic proposals to have come out of committee do NOT increase choice of plans for the average American (NB: you are forbidden from using slippery slope fallacies, darn – or you must at least back up your slippery slopes with evidence, but not FAULTY analogies). (c) Pillar four “accountability”: CPR talks about placing the burden squarely on the shoulders of the patient (so much for that level playing field CPR talked about in pillar one between doctors, insurers and patients). Please explain how burdening the individual (with costs, pre-existing condition exlcusions, rescissions, etc.) will increase “freedom” (which CPR says it is trying to defend) or, hell, the individual’s health, which is what the central concern is supposed to be in healthcare reform. Today, afterall, almost all health plans have pre-existing condition exclusions (here are some example translations for you: you eat too much now, get fat and then become diabetic later you will face problems later with coverage; or you have *** now without a condom and get HIV and you will forever be denied coverage unless it’s a government sponsored plan or group coverage). How has the “accountability” through pre-existing condition exclusions decreased obesity or HIV infection rates in this country over, say, the past 25 years, just to name two.
I also ask sbj to actually look over the ‘plans’ that CPR compares. I see a LOT of inconsistencies and exaggerations: for example, Coburn’s plan will provide universal coverage according to the CPR, but yet it does not include a mandate. Or, better, Jindal’s Louisiane Health First plan: CPR says it provides “guaranteed coverage”, yet it is only a pilot program, and says nothing about getting rid of pre-existing conditions, a pre-req to having “guaranteed coverage”. Please go through the “right-wing” plans in particular and check for consistency…as it is, there has been NO plan put forth by a Republican or right-leaning politician that will lead to both cost containment AND universal coverage. If you refute this, please, provide the details. I will destroy the plan (especially the latest one released by the Repubs in Congress) – not to be too arrogant. My e-mail: alanwm80@hotmail.com. Thanks!
2. sbj again lumps all democrats together, and states that health insurers are giving money like mad to democrats. please refer yourself to the politico website. they recently published an article on how “blue dogs” are getting a disproportionate share of health insurers’ money – these are the same people who tried to block reform in the House Energy & Commerce Committee, and who have come out en masse against a public option. Funny how this co-incides with the health insurers’ desire to kill the public option. Oh, and you should also note how Sen. Max Baucus has received disproportionate amounts of money from health insurers, and he, actually, has said in the past, more or less, that he is against a strong public option. Please, analyze the data correctly and then make your argument – lest you sound arrogant, yet mis-informed, at the same time.
3. Oh, and please stop implying that the health insurers are ‘giving something up’ at the table when they argue for reform. As it is, the health insurers want an individual mandate, but with no public option – i.e. nearly 50 million new customers they have ‘trapped’ into coverage, provided, conveniently, only by private insurers.
I think our next topic of discussion, which is not mentioned in the press much (but a topic I’m sure an informed person such as yourself, sbj, would understand), should be market failures, health insurance and the goal of universal coverage. Hint: Look at Arrow and Debreu’s research on the pre-conditions for an economic equilibrium, in particular, the “free and perfect” information one.
Have a good one!
I was recently at a town hall meeting with our local congressman where he wanted to explain what was happening in washington and get a feel for the people he represented (central Texas). The minute he started to speak an organized group of these people would shout him down. They started waving their signs and actually were hitting people with them. Finally he left to go to another town hall meeting and they followed him in mass. Again,anytime he started to speak, they’d start yelling and screaming so nobody could hear or say anything. They accomplished their objective, but they sure made everybody else mad because we wanted to hear what he had to say.
Goebbels to this day is acknowledged as the father of inciting the masses to walk in someone else’s shoes, now we have the health care industry using lobbyists and ad men to incite the same type of mass “seig heil” steppage.Time to step bravely with truth to power.
@RickdaJarhead:”I do not want to stop progress – but the simple fact is that the progress this nation has made until now has been BECAUSE of our private, free enterprise system.”
Let’s start with the start of the Constitution, y’know, where it says ‘Me, a person..’ Oh, gosh, no, it says ‘WE THE PEOPLE…’ and just a little farther, it states that one of the reasons for ‘this Constitution’ is to ‘promote the general Welfare,’ for ourseleves and our posterity.
What part of helping everyone get health insurance isn’t promoting their general welfare, and the nation’s?
As for that uninnovative government you live under, look at the damned box you’re typing on, and how it’s sending these messages. Thanks to NASA and DARPA for that. Assuming your handle is for real, there’s still some Federal GI $ you can use to get an education. And while you’re at it, call your grandma. Tell her you’re cancelling her Medicare and Social Security.See if you’re still in her will at check-out time.
Man, it’s like a fish: no idea that water even exists. The reason government has ended up in so many of these fields is that private industry failed at it (clean food, clean water, clean air, public education, public health, public universities, libraries, etc.)
And often, the reason why the government’s part of the business (the Post Office, passenger trains) is now a loser is because private industry has gotten Republicans to let it take away the profitable parts (parcel shipping, for example) and leave the expensive, constitutionally-mandated part, home delivery of letters, to the government, because it can’t be profitable by itself.
And that’s why the government is going to end up in the health insurance business again. Just like the industry’s refusal to care for the old, and happy to hand them off to the government, someone has to handle the coverage of the almost 50million who don’t have explicit coverage, because the industry won’t cover them.
For god’s sake, think for yourself, why don’tcha?
Very interesting and useful post…
These aren’t “Town Hall Rallies”, they are vocal muggings by organized political groups with a special interest in seeing health care reform fail.
sbj- you got a little something on your dress, geeze- kiss neocon booty much? I am waiting for the catch-all justification used by Limbaughtomy patients, the libruls do it too, darrrrrrrghhhhhh. THe biggest lie ever told was that neocons were in any way shape or form for smaller government… PTUIII
These people are the same white trash that shouted “kill him” and “terrorist” at the Palin rallies during the general election campaign. These people are simply racists and can not wrap their heads around the fact that we have an African American President in the White House. They are quickly becoming the minority in the country (census predictions say by 2042 the white poplulation will be in the minority) – so they have taken their white hoods off and shown their faces in daylight. In addition to this, they are being used by the health insurance lobby who are spending millions of dollars a day to incite these types of outbursts. These people are completely oblivious to the fact that they are pawns; the fact is that they are mostly uneducated, ignorant, white supremacists so ginned up with anger that they would do anything blindly. These people are acting “stupidly”.
This is a call to all democrats to attend townhall meetings to counter the neocons lies and fearmongering. When you see a senior citizen with the birther crowd interruptors, point at them at shout “MEDICARE RECIPIENT HYPOCRITE!” I was against a public health care option for fear Bush neocn presidents would use it to intimidate and brutalize mainstream America. But, ever since Rick Scott, the Madoff of Healthcare came out against it, I’m all for it now. IF the biggest crook in healthcare history is against this, it must be a good thing.
The current solution under debate in the bill today is overkill. It’s like having a flat tire, broken windshield, and broken tail light on your family car and fixing it by buying a Tractor-Trailer. It’s too big and too much. Fix the problems; don’t kill the current plans because some are slipping trough the cracks. If it wasn’t for private healthcare, I probably would be dead today. I don’t support healthcare reform in it’s current form, but I do support healthcare reform. We need to take a close look at the 1079 page bill and really think before we blindly follow our elected officials. Our President Barrack Obama called on us to get involved… so come on, get involved… read the bill, question your officials. If they tell you that something won’t happen although you read it in the bill, tell them “put it in the bill so we can be assured that it won’t happen”
“who are using fringe elements on the right”
Those who say this are idiots and have never personally been to either the Tea Parties or the town hall meetings. Those who attend them are average, middle class, hardworking Americans who are finally waking up to what is happening.If you go to one of these events you will see families, retired people,professionals and people of all ages. Liberals are just spreading lies because they want to silence us.
I actually worked for a law firm that researched health care overcharges and insurance denials that intentionally led to patient deaths. Based on internal memos and training materials from those industries. They intentionally delay providing services that patients have paid for in premiums over decades when they get seriously ill. They have actuary tables documenting how long they need to delay in order to have a sufficient percentage of patients die waiting for their care approvals. A huge number of bankruptcies and home seizures are do to medical debt. One would think average Americans would wish for this system to be changed. Most of the rest of the civilized world already has a handle on this problem… we need to grow up regarding the care of our extended families.
“Liberals lie on the bed the neo-cons made!”
Those who say this are idiots and have never personally been to either the Health Care forums or the town hall meetings. Those who attend them are average, middle class, hardworking Americans who are finally waking up to what the Reagan and Bush administrations did. If you go to one of these events you will see families, retired people, professionals and people of all ages. Conservatives are just spreading lies because they want to silence us.
They also wish to continue stealing money from the middle class, while refusing to pay their fair share to the community chest! They are like little children stealing candy from other children then whining that their tum-tums hurt!
@Me overhere: Nice folksy analogy, but it doesn’t stand up. Please provide specific support of how the “current plans” are being “killed” in either of the 4 propositions approved by the Congressional committees so far. Your words may sound nice to the uninitiated, but they’re false. No one is proposing getting rid of the “current plans”, but rather as you implore, the 4 proposals so far fix what is broken. For example:
1. Insurance companies deny coverage based on pre-existing conditions: outlawed in each proposal.
2. Insurance companies charge unaffordable premiums based on health status, making health coverage when you need it the most unavailable, unless you can afford the astronomical premiums (which the vast majority of Americans cannot today): outlawed for the most part in each proposal, where price differentiation is no longer allowed based on health status or gender, but merely, possibly, age or area.
3. Insurance companies spend billions a year just looking for ways to deny care, with at least 30% in “overhead” costs, compared to 3% for Medicare: the solution, so far, a public option for those who CHOOSE to enroll in the public plan (AND they will have a choice of private plan in the health exchange). This public option will ONLY be available to those in the beginning who do not have PRIVATE health insurance provided through their employers, or are self-employed.
4. Conservatives b*?&h and complain about how the health care reform will lead to the public sector taking over coverage: Wrong. Look to Massachusetts were since health reform was enacted in 2006, PRIVATE, employer-provided coverage has increased. Why? Because of the employer mandate, whereby employers must provide coverage over contribute to the state healthcare fund. Or maybe try looking to Hawaii also, where employer coverage is mandated for employees working 20 hours or more.
Seriously, get a clue before you open your mouth. Legislators (well, Democratic legislators) are sufficiently aware of what is in the bill, and the safeguards are in it. Maybe you have been listening to CPR/Rick Scott or Fux News too much about how the evil Democrats are coming to take away your private healthcare.
Oh, and please enlighten us, how is it that private health insurance “saved” your life? (as opposed to public health insurance, which you are implicitly saying cannot “save” lives) I have a very serious medical condition, and it is ONLY because of PUBLICLY provided health insurance that I am covered – all private health insurers have refused to even cover me, let alone charge me astronomical premiums.
You are certainly thinking “stupidly”. Be a little bit less intellectually lazy and inform yourself, lest you become another member of the rabble opposing the first opportunity to enact real healthcare reform in nearly 20 years – the real healthcare reform that is needed for not only the estimated 20,000 Americans who die each year because of lack of coverage (see the Institute of Medicine), but also middle class Americans being crushed under the unjustifiably large profit margins of private health insurers, hospitals and doctors.
It would be interesting to see Rick Scott’s reaction if his website, CPRights.org, got shouted down.
The public option sucks?
Public Option: You pay the government who then pays the doctor.
Private Option” You pay insurance executives, lobbyists, lawyers, congressment, advertising agencies, broadcast media, mistresses, mistresses’ dog, bookies and, eventually, the doctor. Everybody gets a piece of the action
Classic American graft — oops! — capitalism.
Courtesy of Stanfill from Crooks & Liars website.
@fdrsigh: I never visited this site before. I find your posts to be well thought-out & insightful, and agree with your position virtually 100%
Your ONLY point with which I take exception is the implication that this effort at health care reform is the “first opportunity to enact real health care reform in nearly 20 years.” REALLY?! I’m not aware of any substantial health care reform 20 years ago, or in fact since the 1960s (when I was a child) when Medicare was enacted. In fact, we’ve been stuck with the current corrupt corporate pig trough system pretty much my entire 50 years of life. The only change is that it’s gotten progressively worse and more prohibitively expensive and out of reach for more & more Americans. That has been a result of the so-called “deregulation” and other pro-corporate policies brought about by the right wing since the days of Goldwater & Reagan, up through the 90s and the first half of this decade by the previously Republican-controlled Congress. The last substantive effort for reform was by the Clintons 16 years ago, and we all know how that turned out. The same tactics used against the Clinton effort are being resurrected now by the corporate insurance monopoly lobby and their shills in Congress (They’re spending millions of dollars for it–chump change for them) to attack today’s effort.
@tpmfromHI…I don’t know who this person is, but I guess I’ll respond. I don’t think you understand, or you misread?, my comments. I don’t disagee with what you say, but re-read the quote: “the first opportunity in 20 years”…it was approximative and was referring to the Clinton’s effort/opportunity to reform healthcare, that was wasted…much like the current one will soon be, sadly…
I THOUGHT WE WERE ‘NOT” A COMMUNIST NATION…. BE SCARED. BE VERY SCARED.
Obama’s gonna kill Grandma?
See:
http://notionscapital.wordpress.com/2009/08/07/obama-wants-to-kill-your-grandma/
There seemed to be concern about the “orchestrated by the Republican Party” line. Officially, the RNC isn’t directly involved. Forget that the groups that are involved are conservative groups…forget the those involved are Republicans and/or Republican supporters…while you’re at it, set the rest of your common sense aside, too. A quick look at today’s political environment makes it easy to separate our elected officials into two groups. Those trying to lead and those trying to mislead. Don’t complain to me because that separation runs down party lines.
To The Editer
First of all Mrs. Pelosi and Mr. Barack Obama;
Health care cost is not going down, there is nothing you can do to force it down, health care is going up not down, it can’t go down, it is going to go up every year from now until the end of time. Hospitals, Doctors, Nurses, Medical Machinery, Research, Education and Training are very time consuming and extremely expensive business. So look Mrs. Pelosi and Mr. Barack Obama >you airheads, it is going up not down.
Creating a government health care insurance company to compete with privet health care insurance is a brain dead idea. When Health Care Insurance companies and the stock holders of those companies aren’t making what they want to make they will simply quit. There is no law forcing them to sell health care insurance. They can sell anything they want or they can send their money back to the stock holders and quit. Stock buyers can buy other stocks. How is the President of The United States of America so dam dumb?
The reason why so many people in the US don’t have Health Care Insurance is because of illegal immigration. All Black and White working man/woman ever borne in the USA have never had a fair chance. When the politicians think we need more cheap labor they simply drop the flood gates and allow mega millions of illegal’s in and drive manual wage rates to a substandard sub free market level.
My Blue Cross costs about three thousand bucks a quarter. Any man or woman making between seven and seventeen bucks an hour can’t drop a three thousand dollar check every quarter >Mr. Barack Obama, you Dumb Dumb.
In the USA, The Home of The Brave, The land of the Free, in a democracy and a free market system if you work manual labor you work for Mexican wages not US wages, and you can’t drop a three thousand dollar check for health care working for Mexican wages.
This problem of so many people not having health care insurance has nothing to do with morals, nothing to do with patriotism, nothing to do with responsibility, nothing to do with willingness to work, it’s the wages you dumb dumb > Mr. Barack Obama, it’s the wages stupid.
It’s the wages stupid.
When a Dairyman has a cow that gets sick he calls the vet. When a slave owner has a slave who gets sick he has to call a doctor or he’ll lose one slave. The politicians in this nation want free health care for the cheep laborers so cheap labor can stay cheep, so they don’t ever have to allow them to make any descent money. This is not a free country it’s power over slavery by manipulation. Politicians are out right scared of the USA not having massive numbers of cheep labors. If the laborers were making good money the politician’s kids wouldn’t be the big shots. Keeping poor people poor helps keep poor people powerless.
This is supposed to be a free country with a free market system (including the labor market). Allowing massive illegal immigration ***** on the whole idea of Free Country, Free Market system (including labor marker), it means all men are not created equal; it is disgusting, criminal, cowardly and trashy. If the US enforced immigration laws to the fullest, making the immigrants speech English and want to become one of us ect., there would still be a hundred million more applicants than we could ever need. So what’s the reason for this trashy disregard for the immigration law?
In the USA work needs to be worth something; otherwise we will have another hundred million punks walking around with their pants below their asses, showing defiance and disrespect for all of our laws and values. If you make seven to fourteen bucks an hour you’re still going to be poor so why work.
The last five presidents are just as guilty of this as Obama is and if I get a chance I’m going to break that Damn George W Bushes nose.
Now do you want to know what’s really bad? The answer is; We are all allowing all of this.
Huckabee grab your guitar.
Do you know that song Aky Breaky Heart by Bill Ray Cyrus?
Use that toon and use these verses instead.
1. Verse One
You can tell my lips
To tell the hypocrites
But I just don’t think they’d understand
2. Verse Two
Kick Obama out
Listen to him pout
We don’t like Joe Biden any way
3. Verse Three
Don’t break my heart
My aching breaking heart
Cash for clunker money is going over sees
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HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!! You people are priceless.
While several good points were made, There seems to be some missing Information.Like AHIP President,Karen Ignagin, warning that If health Care Reform/w the Public Option is passed, They will do the following,(1)Raise Premiums,(2)Drop Coverage in certain Areas,(3)Refuse Coverage,(4)Force people Out.(you need to read My Soapbox Alert on Congress.org) She was echoed by Robert Zirkelback,CPR,as well as the GOP(Whom I refer to as the (”GREEDY OBSTRUCTIONIST PEDDLERS”)who Sent out their marching orders to Rush,Beck,Hannity,Dobbs, With a Simple Game Plan which read as follows:,NOTHING MATTERS EXCEPT TAKING THE 2010 & 2012 ELECTIONS,TAKING BACK THE CONGRESS AND WHITE HOUSE,YOU KNOW WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE,(1)OBSTRUCTION 2)DELAYS
3)DISRUPTIONS,& 4) ANYTHING GOES, WE MUST DESTROY THE
DEMOCRATS & PRESIDENT OBAMA’S AGENDA.
The facts remain that the Republicans kept denying that they had nothing to do with the yellers at Town Hall Meetings, And now just as we suspected the whole time they were behind it All.The Problem with the Republicans is that,They DO NOT KNOW How to take responsibility for their Wreckless Actions &,mis-Leading(LIES)Information On Every KjEverytime they said something,for their health care reform we got stuck with, “THE DONUT HOLE” Not a good plan because Insurers still refuse to pay claims(Ex:In my case, I was told that, “I WASN’T SICK ENOUGH” but yet now I use a walker, and the Kicker? The VA doesn’t carry or cover it Either. Oh, Did I mention that I am a Disabled Dssert Storm Veteran?
Secondly,AHIP President sent out a memo, They arranged to have staffers at Every Democratic Town hall with signs, but the Republicans tried to convince us these were Regular Joe’s and jane’s, However, there was a Complete give-a-ways, The Signs! The Signs! I know what a Homemade Sign looks like, I’ve made them, A majority of the signs were Professionally Done.
There is so much more that I want to say, so for Now I will give you my Web page and you can continue reading my articles and op-ed’s at http://www.Newsvine.com/LDugas2001/A CALL TO ACTION
Thanks for Listening, or Reading. Check out Congress.org and
A CALL TO ACTION @ Newvine.com
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Luckily, I think that this is starting to work in the Democratic Party’s favor, since people see the Reich-wing teabagger idiots for the nuisances that they really are…
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