Happy Hour Roundup
* Wow: Right-wing hero whose claims about waterboarding were widely cited by the pro-torture brigade is now admitting that he basically made the whole thing up.
* Ed Rendell rips White House for insufficient attention to 2010 elections, suggests Obama’s spending too much time on the futile quest for bipartisanship:
“The political operation is good, but it needs to be better…The president has been reluctant to sort of roll up his sleeves and fight for the things we believe in because he’s been trying hard for bipartisan results.”
* Shorter Evan Bayh: Best hope for bipartisanship is for Dems to completely capitulate to Republicans.
* Kate Pickert notes, rightly I think, that there’s reason to be (a bit) hopeful about health reform.
* But: Dem sources tell ABC News that the price-tag for the reconciliation fix could scare the bejesus out of moderates, perhaps dimming reform’s prospects.
* And: Senate Dem leaders are apparently still discussing the possibility of a scaled-down bill, or even temporarily shelving reform.
* Along those lines, Benen says the real worry isn’t that reform will burn out, but that it’ll fade away.
* Ben Bernanke’s renomination sailed through the Senate today. Here’s a list of the Senators who voted No.
* Eerie: John Kerry’s camp says they thoroughly vetted John Edwards’ personal life in 2004 and didn’t have the slightest inkling of what he was capable of.
* Fantasy of the day: “A Hillary Clinton Primary Challenge to Obama in 2012?” No. Next question?
* And don’t miss this must-watch video showcasing Rudy Giuliani’s extraordinary national security expertise:
Quick, book Rudy for another round of network interviews!
What else is happening?
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I’m assuming the “Wow” in that first story is sarcastic.
Evan Bayh is like a spy who goes undercover and then forgets that he’s working for the other side.
“Hey guys, let’s act all the same then no one will shout at us?”
Moron.
Greg, nothing on the Judd Gregg and Breitbart freakouts??
Rudy’s girdle is too tight.
Evan Bayh is a moron. Period.
A day after Obama just finished telling Congress to get stuff done and stop focusing so much on bs Rendell comes out with bs. Does he not get that Obama’s noises about bipartisanship are not about the Reps but about the indys? He has gumption but not very good strategist.
BGinCHI — I dunno, that was interesting stuff but also kinda pathetic. If you wanna drop links in here tho, I’m sure no one will object…
Richard Nixon said if the president did something, it must be legal. Rudy Guiliani evidently thinks that if he said something, it must be real.
It’s astounding that he goes unchallenged when he makes those statements.
Greg, yeah, I know, pathetic is right.
Links in the last thread, so I’m sure people know.
I guess I was hoping it demonstrated a pattern of right-wing freakoutery…..
“It’s astounding that he goes unchallenged when he makes those statements.”
No it isn’t – he was saying them on Faux.
also kind of funny that Shuster (who I really like and am a fan of) got reprimanded…
If they want to fix the price tag for HCR reconciliation put the PO back on the table or Medicare buy in. They both save money on the overall bill. Sheesh. And it was the most popular part of the bill. They would be HCR heroes.
Greg,
One should note that the story in which Rendell is considered “ripping” Obama is an AP hatchet-job by infamous AP hack Liz Sidoti. I’d be interested to hear under what context the PA Gov was talking, since he’s been pretty supportive so far. Why not also give retiring Rep. Marion Berry of Arkansas the same attention in the wrap-up. He’s quoted just as prominently as Rendell, blaming Obama’s policies for Dem troubles in 2010. Guess we should be suggesting the Dems abandon health care, too?
BG
I think it just might be (freakoutery). I’m beginning to wonder if the chorus of “na, na, na,” is starting to wear a little thin on some of them. Marching in lock step may be looking a little absurd to some of them.
sheesh, some of them, some of them. I better take a break.
Anyone know where the $300 billion figure for reconciliation is originating? The House and Senate bills were much closer than that, both coming in under $900 billion.
Indeed, if we are talking about using reconciliation to amend the bill then all it would affect are the top line numbers of the original HCR bill. And including a PO or any case where the government gets to negotiate prices brings the total bill down. What a weird world the MSM lives in when they just accept at face value lies like what Joe Lieberman told concerning the costs of health care reform.
lmsinca – yeah, it’s silly at this point to start dicking around over the price tag when we’ve been through this.
When Breitbart brought up the reprimand, if Shuster really wanted to hit him back, he should have said “A reprimand just means that this network has the journalistic merit to hold it’s people accountable when they make mistakes.”
And…what Judd Gregg freakout?
LOL
“Sen. Al Franken (D-MN), on health care reform:
The opponents of reform have found their bumper sticker, their slogan, their rallying cry, it’s one word: No. You can read that on a bumper.
Our bumper sticker has — it’s just way too many words. And it says, “Continued on next bumper sticker.”
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/
As kurtz said: dude has not lost the funny.
@Greg: You really like and are a fan of Shuster?
Say it ain’t so!
“NY pols stunned to learn Obama administration opposes funding for 9/11 health bill”
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2010/01/28/2010-01-28_ny_pols_stunned_to_learn_obama_administration_opposes_funding_for_911_health_bil.html#ixzz0dxEN8nNP
via HotAir
I know there must be some explanation … ?
fbacon2, maybe I misread, but I didn’t think Rendell was blaming Dem policies for the 2010 problems as much as he was calling for Obama to fight harder for Dem principles, and to place less of a premium on bipartisanship, in order to galvanize the base and give people something to vote for..
@Greg, I don’t think Rendell was blaming Dem policies, but Berry sure was. My point is that it was hard to tell exactly what the effect or tone of Rendell’s comments was supposed to be because the whole article was a classic Sidoti piece designed to collect a bunch of quotes from Dems saying Obama’s political operation bites. Readers will see Rendell’s quote in that context, and it seemed from your blurb on the story that you were feeding into a narrative about naive bipartisanship being the root of our base problem, which was affirmed by Rendell “ripping” Obama.
I think the bipartisanship canard has been overstated, but it confirms a lot of beliefs on progressive blogs. Berry was quoted just as prominently as blaming health care on Dem policies, which would probably have a ready audience among conservative Dems, but it’s no more grounded than Rendell’s line. Also, thanks for responding.
BBQ, Gregg thing is here:
http://thinkprogress.org/2010/01/28/gregg-msnbc-hissy-fit/
There’s also video out there.
Rendell is playing hardball from the left, and I’m glad he’s doing it. He’s spoiling for a fight and since it’s a fight worth having I’m for it.
Eddie can mix it up.
And if the AP spun it as infighting, what a SURPRISE! The AP sucks.
DISNEY/ABC’s Brian Ross more than just fluffed the FALSE claims of sadistic right wing torture advocates, DISNEY/ABC’s Brian Ross also enabled the Republican’s FALSE claims that Iraq was responsible for the anthrax attacks:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/08/01/anthrax
This is the same DISNEY/ABC that has Nixonian Republican Diane Sawyer reporting their evening news.
The same DISNEY/ABC that apparently still has murderous Theocratic fanatic Pat Robertson spouting his deranged nonsense on DISNEY’s “Family” subsidiary.
The same DISNEY/ABC that for years pushed extreme right wing Jon Stossel’s nonsense for years (he’s now moved to his natural fetid waters: FOX).
Anyone know when DISNEY/ABC decided to FOX-Fascist Lite?
Wow: Right-wing hero whose claims about waterboarding were widely cited by the pro-torture brigade is now admitting that he basically made the whole thing up.
Not quite. Read the actual story. Read the comments. Read Theissen’s takedown. A few notable facts:
He says he was in error to say AZ talked after one waterboarding, when he wasn’t there and doesn’t know how many it took. His story doesn’t question whether it “worked,” only the accuracy of his earlier suggestion that it worked quickly.
It remains the undisputed fact that AZ witheld information that he only disclosed after waterboarding, like it or not.
Your description of him as a “right wing hero” is a bit much in light of the fact that he worked on John Kerry’s staff.
So, it would appear he is probably a liberal Democrat and Bush critic, and you are calling him a liar.
It is hard to see how any of this is bad for Republicans.
It’s the
Republican Pathological Liars Party:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cct9BoyIB80
Enabled by Murdoch’s FOX Fascists.
Here’s a headline the Corporate Media won’t be running:
“ACORN Cleared, Right Wing ‘Pimp’ Arrested.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrBMbS6hOsA
fbacon2 — I will agree with you that being wary of Sidoti’s reporting is probably a good idea.
That said, anytime a senior Dem is willing to point out (if the quotes are accurate and in context) that Obama should roll up his sleeves and fight for things that Dems will believe in, I’m happy to highlight it…
“…anytime a senior Dem is willing to point out (if the quotes are accurate and in context) that Obama should roll up his sleeves and fight for things that Dems will believe in, I’m happy to highlight it…”
THANK YOU.
Re: * Wow: Right-wing hero whose claims about waterboarding were widely cited by the pro-torture brigade is now admitting that he basically made the whole thing up.
Actually, Brian Ross basically made the whole thing up. In the transcript (but not the edited video) Kiriakou clearly tells Ross he wasn’t there.
Agent Kiriakou was an active participant in the Zubaydah firefight/capture in Pakistan. He was not a “water cooler” gossip. He knew the interrogators and told Ross what they told him. The “one short application” claim is unclear in the transcript as to how many times the technique was used; Ross’ editing is what drove that claim. (As effinusual.)
The clown at FP seems not to have read the transcript either; and his CV shows he may have an, uh, advocacy thing, as they say.
Once again, a fellow trying to do his best to save lives gets boned by various (left&right) media succubi too lazy or dishonest to bloody read.
Transcript:
http://abcnews.go.com/images/Blotter/brianross_kiriakou_transcript1_blotter071210.pdf
So I’m hoping this catches on…
“Why would big banks oppose Obama’s bailout-repayment fee? Banks LOVE fees.”
Jack Cafferty on Pelosi. Ha.
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=A6_xgKWzhRw
Anyone see Rachel tonight. That girl rocks. Highlights of the speech showing Republicans sitting on their keesters while Obama presented all his populist themes. Bank fee for returning TARP, Jobs bill, SC decision and more. Looks like they’re painted into the corner with corporate and foreign money. HaaaaaaaaHaaaaaaaaaa. I hope the Dems realize what a political gold mine this is.
actuator
You’re right on that one, dumb move for a smart woman. The optics are terrible.
qb:
Not quite. Read the actual story. Read the comments. Read Theissen’s takedown. A few notable facts:
Good points all, but you missed the one that reflects the most poorly on the integrity of our host here. Kiriakou admitted that his original information was second hand, and that he had no direct knowledge of what he was talking about. In no way whatsoever can this be honestly construed as having “basically made the whole thing up”.
In other words, it is Greg himself who is basically making things up.
Kiriakou’s claims that waterboarding produced results from Abu Zubaydah were patently absurd, especially when you consider that they had to reapply the procedure an additional 82 times.
If I have to take my car back to the same mechanic 83 times in a single month, it is not credible for me to later claim that he got it right the first time and in only 35 seconds.
Of course our resident pro torture teabaggers put a different spin on the story.
At the very least, it is abundantly clear that Kiriakou was lying right from the start. He never disclosed to ABC that he had no direct knowledge about what transpired during the initial torture of Zubaydah. In fact, he was merely repeating scuttlebutt. He did not know anything, yet he continued to repeat his story.
Kiriakou “repeated his waterboarding-efficiency claims to the Washington Post, the New York Times, National Public Radio, CBS, CNN, MSNBC, and other media organizations last year,” all at a time when he knew that his story was indeed nothing but fiction.
It appears that Kiriakou was either nothing more than a liar who sought to knowingly falsely prop up a morally indefensible program of torture, or he was a publicity hound who sought the limelight by claiming expert status on a subject he knew little about.
The more we learn about Cheney’s contemptible and inhumane program of torture, the more we see how ineffective it was. Moreover, Cheney, et al., knew it to be ineffective, yet they continued to use it. Cheney is an un-indicted war criminal whose odious past becomes more indefensible and disgusting as we learn more about it.
I have never seen Sen. Gregg so unraveled or disrespectful.
WTF, why can’t we get GOP/Teabaggers to get on board with getting our country back on track with fiscal responsibility?
“every Senate Republican today voted against reestablishing “pay-as-you-go” budgeting rules that mandate that any new spending must be paid for.”
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2010/01/party_of_no.php?ref=fpblg
Some GOP lawmakers are backing out of commitments to speak at a upcoming Teabagger convention… why? Perception of course.
Washington (CNN) – Two major speakers at next week’s first Tea Party Convention are dropping out of the lineup.
Tennessee Rep. Marsha Blackburn and Minnesota Rep. Michele Bachmann announced Thursday that they will not be attending the convention, which is scheduled to start late next week in Nashville, Tennessee.
Blackburn was scheduled to serve as a featured speaker and also introduce the keynote speaker, former Alaska governor and 2008 GOP vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin.
Bachman was scheduled to serve as one of the convention’s kickoff speakers. Both congresswomen are strong supporters of the tea party movement.
Blackburn’s congressional office says the House Committee on Standards advised her not to participate in the convention, which is being put together by the Tea Party Nation as a for-profit entity. Tea Party Nation is run by Judson Phillips, a lawyer in Tennessee.
“I spoke to Judson Phillips this morning and let him know that I could not participate in the convention. I told him frankly that Tea Party Nation’s for-profit status has put many of his speakers in an awkward position,” Blackburn said in a statement.
“Standards advised Congressman Blackburn not to participate in the event due to uncertainty about how any proceeds from the event may be used. Convention organizers have not been clear about how those funds will be put to use. We have every indication that any profit could be put to work to advance grass roots causes and some of those uses could make the Congressman’s participation improper after the fact,” says Blackburn Communications Director Claude H. Chafin
It was a similar message from Bachmann’s office.
“Due to conflicting advice on whether Representative Bachmann’s participation in the upcoming Tea Party Nation Convention would be in line with the Committee on Standards, Congresswoman Bachmann has decided not to participate in the event. There is uncertainty about how any proceeds from the event may be used, and we must err on the side of caution,” says Bachmann Press Secretary Debbee Keller.”
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/01/28/two-key-tea-party-convention-speakers-cancel/
I hope there is a special place in hell for Giuliani. Obama discussed in the SOTUS how he is carrying the attack to Al Qaeda in a way Bush never did.
Meanwhile, we have more Republican bed-wetting in the form of Mayor Bloomberg.
lmsinca — re: Rachel: Tracey Ullman was hySTERical. Too bad we don’t have Showtime.
From the Kiriakou piece in FP…
“Now we know,” Kiriakou goes on, “that Zubaydah was waterboarded eighty-three times in a single month, raising questions about how much useful information he actually supplied.”
Indeed. But after his one-paragraph confession, Kiriakou adds that he didn’t have any first hand knowledge of anything relating to CIA torture routines, and still doesn’t. And he claims that the disinformation he helped spread was a CIA dirty trick: “In retrospect, it was a valuable lesson in how the CIA uses the fine arts of deception even among its own.”
Well, yes.
I see that FOX, wishing for analyses and commentary on the SOTU speech, turned to government historian Sarah Palin. Jesuschristinheaven. The end of days is surely nigh.
Re the Davos/Wall Street/super rich people anger at Obama moves to regulate financial institutions… it is, I would suggest, just the latest instance of that age-old social and political phenomenon which we probably ought to label “topulism”.
Yglesias looks at the consequences of American political disfunction where American governments might wish to engage in cooperative international agreements. Starting up a big “whoopee – let’s blow those evil ******** to hell!” is easy enough but otherwise, why would any outside nation or group of nations presume that the US negotiator can deliver on anything at all? http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2010/01/the-internationalization-of-us-policy-paralysis-and-the-collapse-of-american-diplomacy.php
Wonderful quote from Inhofe…
“INHOFE: I was thinking back to the first State of the Union Address with President Clinton, and I thought this guy can say things that are untrue with greater conviction than anyone I’ve ever seen. I honestly think that Obama is better. And I don’t mean that unkindly.” http://thinkprogress.org/2010/01/28/inhofe-obama-lie/
What Inhofe admires in a political leader is dishonesty and the ability to deceive.
All, morning roundup posted:
http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/terrorism/the-morning-plum-59/
More “topulism”…
Take a peek here at the marketing package surrounding Gov Bob McDonnell’s SOTU response. Yummy pie chart. Four and twenty bankers baked in it. http://thinkprogress.org/2010/01/27/mcdonnell-wallst-sotu/
Scott C:
You are correct, as is tao9. Both are excellent and related points on which I lost focus. The characterization of this story by our good host is untrue from quite a number of angles.
I’m sure it’s a mistake to critique the psychotic Gasbag’s screed, but, what the heck, it’s Friday morning. Let’s see what he has to say.
Kiriakou’s claims that waterboarding produced results from Abu Zubaydah were patently absurd, especially when you consider that they had to reapply the procedure an additional 82 times.
This is one of those compound sentences made to look like it says something when it really doesn’t have a logical point other than the opening assertion. Kiriakou has clarified that his claim that AZ talked after one waterboarding might have been incorrect. Nothing else about what he is in question, let alone patently absurd. Waterboarding Az and the other two terrorists still “worked,” as abundant evidence independent of Kiriakou shows.
If I have to take my car back to the same mechanic 83 times in a single month, it is not credible for me to later claim that he got it right the first time and in only 35 seconds.
Again, there really is no point here. Of course it wouldn’t be accurate to say something “worked” the first time when it didn’t work until after multiple attempts, but that is exactly what Kiriakou has corrected. I also hope that our agencies do not treat interrogation like a trip to the mechanic to diagnose and repair a problem, where success on the first try is expected. Indeed, waterboarding was used on AZ only after non-enhanced interrogation did not “work.” So, by Gasbag’s standard, non-enhanced interrogation does not “work” and should be abandoned.
At the very least, it is abundantly clear that Kiriakou was lying right from the start. He never disclosed to ABC that he had no direct knowledge about what transpired during the initial torture of Zubaydah.
This simply isn’t true. The transcript doesn’t show that he claimed first-hand knowledge. To the contrary, it shows that he didn’t. Brian Ross was probably sloppy in his handling of those details, as tao9 has said.
The more we learn about Cheney’s contemptible and inhumane program of torture, the more we see how ineffective it was. Moreover, Cheney, et al., knew it to be ineffective, yet they continued to use it. Cheney is an un-indicted war criminal whose odious past becomes more indefensible and disgusting as we learn more about it.
To the contrary, we know they did work, and this insignificant story in no way suggests otherwise. Gasbag is apparently applying his “mechanic” standard, under which, if it didn’t work the first time, it didn’t work. I think most Americans would agree that, to the contrary, we are as happy with the disclosure of information after the tenth or twentieth or fiftieth interrogation as after the first.
In fact, if we applied Gasbag’s standard, then of course we would have to stop all interrogations after one attempt to get information.
And since Gasbag believes that the only morally and legally permissible method of interrogation is asking questions under pleasant and comfortable conditions, with a lawyer for the terrorist present, there is no realistically available interrogation method that “works.”
We might as well just not bother. In AZ’s case, since he did not talk after being questioned the first time, interrogation did not “work” and should have been abandoned. That is how absurd Gasbag’s position is.
A couple of other important points. We’ve known for close to a year at least that AZ was waterboarded “83 times” (although that figure apparently counts every administration of water separately and doesn’t represent the number of interrogation sessions). This has two implications.
First, again, this little story is much ado about nothing. We already knew that AZ had been waterboarded numreous times and hadn’t simply given up all his information after one administration.
Second, the objections of people like Gasbag, who hyperventilate that it was necessary to waterboard AZ numerous times before he disclosed information he was witholding actually, undermine their argument that waterboarding was inhumane and horrific “torture,” and vindicate the use of the technique and the program as a whole. According to the folks like Gasbag, AZ should have been spilling all sorts of information, true and untrue, as soon as he was waterboarded. This makes Gasbag’s current hyperventilations all the more ironic.
And, finally, Kiriakou revealed in his interview that those involved in program waterboarded each other as part of their training. I’m sure the anti-Cheney pitchfork crowd will whine that this still isn’t like being waterboarded “for real,” but (a) they have no basis for saying this, and (b) it really doesn’t matter. It is absurd for people to Gasbag to argue that a technique our personnel administered to each other in training is an inhumane, horrific torture.
Forgot one thing: Is Kiriakou a publicity hound? Probably so — the one true thing Gasbag suggested.
Since the CIA guy lied to Brian Ross of ABC, about having witnessed the water-boarding, then there is no reason to believe that he was even told about, like he now claims.
Why would anyone lie about having witnessed it, if the truth were that he heard about it from some colleagues.
quarterback,
If the torture was so effective, only 35 seconds needed to get the results they were after, why then did the procedure need to be repeated 82 more times?
Your assertion that this proves its effectiveness is bizarre even by your standards.
And despite your inaccurate assertions, we have first hand knowledge from interrogators such as Matthew Alexander who was present at the pre-torture sessions and that they actually did work. Alexander states emphatically that the traditional interrogation techniques not only worked, but that when the torture started, the actionable intelligence stopped. Alexander provides first hand direct knowledge while Kiriakou reports rumors.
For one who has a habit of angrily demanding facts of others, you seem to be remarkably unconcerned with the factual basis of your arguments. I guess this another example of your “because I say so” brand of logic. You call torture by a euphemism and “poof,” it’s no longer torture. I guess you perform the same magic trick with what you deem “facts.”
As the evidence mounts that torture is not only wrong but hopelessly ineffective, you simply choose to ignore it. You also seem not acknowledge that Cheney’s doctrine of torture was one of the most effective recruiting tools that Al Qeada ever had. That fact alone should give you pause. But hey, why let facts get in the way of your pro-torture campaign.
Gasbag is not very smart and proves it again.
1. I never said waterboarding worked in 35 seconds. To the contrary, I said that Kiriakou corrected his earlier suggestion that it worked immediately, and pointed out as I have previously here that we already knew AZ was waterboarded a number of times to get the information from him. It is, rather, Gasbag’s absurd position that if it didn’t work immediately it didn’t work at all.
2. Actually, we have plenty of first-hand, indisputable proof that enhanced interrogation produced large amounts of important information. The memos released last year, Hayden, Mukasey, all the details revealed last year about KSM’s near-miraculous cooperation after enhanced interrogatoin. Go read Thiessen’s work. He has already addressed and dispatched the Kiriakou’s clarification. He interviewed interrogators who were actually involved.
3. Matthew Alexander has his point of view as a committed opponent of any interrogation techniques other than nonconfrontational interrogation. But his is just one perpective, and he is an advocate for a position who is motivated to deny that EIT was effective. More importantly, contrary to Gasbag, he was not as far as I know involved at all with interrogation of AZ (or KSM), and he does not and cannot contradict he abundant information we have about the effectiveness of EIT used on them. Gasbag is, as usual, just making up facts.
4. Once again, disregard for the truth makes his ad hominen attack ironic to say the least. We debated this months ago, with Gasbag exposed over and over for not even knowing what the interrogation tactics are that he calls “torture.” Calling it torture does not make it torture.
5. Of course I do not acknowledge that supposed “torture” was “one of the most effective recruitng tools that” AQ ever had, because that claim is absurd on numerous grounds. America-hating liberals like Gasbag can never content themselves with making reasonable arguments; they must overreach and concoct every conceivable argument no matter how unfounded or ridiculous. Believe or not that EIT was a good idea; it can’t be dispute that it provided much valuable information.
quarterback possesses THE TRUTH! QED!